Psionic vs Arcane: Build me some characters.

Thanee · Sep 14, 2004

Now what I would like to see is a sorcerer (or wizard) who blows through all five encounters with ease (neglecting defense as for the psion, of course), as that would be what all the posters implied, who said the sorcerer has a much better endurance during a day (with enough encounters to make use of it). This is one example to show this endurance, so after defeating all five opponents there should be a significant portion of spell slots left, which has not been used up, to demonstrate this advantage (the psion is basically exhausted after that with only a few PP left, so the sorcerer should easily have a bunch of spells left over by then)!

According to a certain comparison on that other thread, if you compare spell slots multiplied by the dice cap (to figure in free scaling) with power points (1-by-1 translated into damage dice), the sorcerer's advantage is displayed (the sorcerer comes out quite a bit ahead, when comparing these numbers).

I called that comparison silly and meaningless, since I do not believe those numbers translate to a real (well, as real as it can get in a fantasy game

) situation, where more factors come into play. Now here's the opportunity to show, that they actually do!

Bye
Thanee

Majere · Sep 14, 2004

green slime said:
I also see:

12/64% = 18.75 expected PP expentiture vs Hezrou

and

12/80% = 15 vs the Elemental.

Although those differences are more than made up for by the overspending vs the Treant, I guess.

The treant thing is hard to account for, would you put in a lower spell or put in one that will kill the treant even if it makes both saves ? Thanee didnt say he would use a smaller version if the first spell didnt kill the treant. Thanee didnt say he would use a smaller version if the first spell didnt kill the treant.

Also the numbers you put are wrong.
Average of 8d6 is 8*3.5= 28
Therefore the average damage of the spell is: (28+8)*2.25= 81
And the average result is (.95*81)+(.05*40)= 78.95
But more practically, 95% of the time you spend 12 pps, and 5% of the time you spend 24.
This gives an aveage pps expendature of 12.6

As for the Hezrou/Elemental I did make an error but so did you

I ran the dominations on a "how many tries until I succeed" calculation.
So for the hezrou, the chance of suceeding on round 1 is:
(16/20)*(16/20)=.64

The chance of suceeding in round 2 is
.36*.64 = 0.2304

Round 3: 0.0829
Round 4: 0.0298
Round 5: 0.01075

Extended until 99.9% of the probable results were covered.
This makes the cost
(.64*11)+(.2304*22)+...=17.18

The wraith thing I read d8s, instead of d6's

ReCalculations:
Rogue = 15.21
Hezrou = 17.18
Treant = 12.6
Wraith = 55
Elemental :13.75

Sum: 113.74

Majere

Majere · Sep 14, 2004

Thanee said:
Now what I would like to see is a sorcerer (or wizard) who blows through all five encounters with ease (neglecting defense as for the psion, of course), as that would be what all the posters implied, who said the sorcerer has a much better endurance during a day (with enough encounters to make use of it). This is one example to show this endurance, so after defeating all five opponents there should be a significant portion of spell slots left, which has not been used up, to demonstrate this advantage (the psion is basically exhausted after that with only a few PP left, so the sorcerer should easily have a bunch of spells left over by then)!

According to a certain comparison on that other thread, if you compare spell slots multiplied by the dice cap (to figure in free scaling) with power points (1-by-1 translated into damage dice), the sorcerer's advantage is displayed (the sorcerer comes out quite a bit ahead, when comparing these numbers).

I called that comparison silly and meaningless, since I do not believe those numbers translate to a real (well, as real as it can get in a fantasy game ) situation, where more factors come into play. Now here's the opportunity to show, that they actually do!

Bye
Thanee

Woo
Even with my poor english and rubbishy maths
Someone actually got the point of the thread

Anyone going to post a sorcerer to take on the bad guys ?
Or do we have to make thanee show us how it is done again.

On a side point, Im noticing that Psis can get very high DC's. I dont expect a 10th level osrcerer or mage to have DC26s saves unless Im really bad at playing arcane casters.

Majere

Majere · Sep 14, 2004

Im with thanee

" Vulnerability to Energy
Some creatures have vulnerability to a certain kind of energy effect (typically either cold or fire). Such a creature takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from the effect, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure. "

It says from the normal effect.
The normal effect when you make the save is half damage:

So the normal damage is : 54 (27 on save)
and adding 50% to the normal damage would be : 81(40 on save)

Majere

green slime · Sep 14, 2004

Majere said:
Im with thanee

" Vulnerability to Energy
Some creatures have vulnerability to a certain kind of energy effect (typically either cold or fire). Such a creature takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from the effect, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure. "

It says from the normal effect.
The normal effect when you make the save is half damage:

So the normal damage is : 54 (27 on save)
and adding 50% to the normal damage would be : 81(40 on save)

Majere

Incorrect: It says "...regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure"

So "normal" average damage is 54 damage, 50% of which is 27.

The creature takes an additional 50% of the normal damage regardless of whether the save is successful or not. If you save, you can half the original damage, but that +50% due to vulnerability is dealt regardless of whether the spell is saved against or not.

Psion · Sep 14, 2004

Thanee said:
Then just use empowered Energy Missiles, Greater Power Penetration and Psionatrix of Kineticism.

Querry: Are you assuming that the +1 DC per PP is correct? I'm not.

Majere · Sep 14, 2004

Thanee said:
Then just use empowered Energy Missiles, Greater Power Penetration and Psionatrix of Kineticism.

Halfling - one empowered Energy Missile (cold; (10d6+10)x1.5; 12 PP). DC 27.
Treeant - one empowered Energy Missile (fire; (8d6+8)x1.5; 10 PP). DC 25.
Dread Wraith - five empowered Concussion Blasts ((4d6)x1.5; 11 PP).
Hezrou - four Energy Missiles (fire; 10d6+10-10; 10 PP). DC 27, +20 vs SR/PR.
Fire Elemental - three empowered Energy Missiles (cold; (8d6+8)x1.5; 10 PP). DC 25.

Something like that, without much thinking. Would work up to the Hezrou, but there wouldn't be enough PP for the Fire Elemental then.

Bye
Thanee

Hafling hp: 35+20= 55hp, Fort save (3+3+2)= +8 (Saves on an 18)
Average damage= 67.5(33.75) =62.44
Average PPs expenditure: 13.8

Treant: Average PPs expenditure: 12.6

Dread wraiths: Average PPs expenditure: 55

Hezrou (automatically breaks SR), Ref+7 (Save on a 20). Fire resistance 10.
Average Damage: 35+10-10= 35 (12.5)
Average PPs to kill: 42.09

Fire elemental: (+11) Saves on a 14
Average damage: 54 (27): 44.55
Average PPs Expendature: 42.92

Overall
The psion is spent by the time the hezrou is dead. (123.49 pps spent)
The dominate certianly seems a much better tactic, especiall as the dominated creature could be used in later fightsto asave the psion having to expend PPs.

Majere

Majere · Sep 14, 2004

green slime said:
Incorrect: It says "...regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure"

So "normal" average damage is 54 damage, 50% of which is 27.

The creature takes an additional 50% of the normal damage regardless of whether the save is successful or not. If you save, you can half the original damage, but that +50% due to vulnerability is dealt regardless of whether the spell is saved against or not.

It doesnt say base damage.
It says normal effect.
Q: "What is the normal effect when a mage fireballs you for 54 points of damage and you make your save"
A : "Normally I would take 27 points of damage"
A : "However I have a fire vulnerability so I take another 50% damage, making the total 40 points"

The reason for the line about "regardless of saves" is simple, under 3.0 creatures with vulnerabilities saved for half and failed for +50%; that is you didnt apply their vulnerability if they made the save.
Under 3.5 you always take +50% of the normal result, even if you make the save.

Majere

Psion · Sep 14, 2004

Right. The wording's confusing, but I beleive Majere is right about the vulnerability bit.

Thanee · Sep 14, 2004

Psion said:
Querry: Are you assuming that the +1 DC per PP is correct? I'm not.

Well, it seems to be, since they did not errata it (same with Dispel, which is really ridiculous), tho I totally agree with you, that it shouldn't be that way. But it's the current official rules.

Bye
Thanee

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