Psionic vs Arcane: Build me some characters.

[Thanee]

Not the only way. They just used items that exist in the rules to their advantage. As did you!

Hey, I didn't really complain, just said, that it is not the best way to show what the class can do. I'm all for removing those items (including Psionatrix and so on) from the comparison for a better comparison.

And I know many people consider the Metamagic Rods to be broken (has been said a lot on the rules forum), so if these are required to give the sorcerer a chance to be competitive, than there is something inherently wrong with the class balance.

And please do not forget, that clerics and druids can use them, too.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Anyways, there are a few other things I'd like to note...

The Dread Wraith eats up a huge amount of PP (dunno if it can be done with less), half of the total roughly, but the chance to encounter such a specific opponent (incorporeal undead) is very slim, so in a realistic environment, this won't factor in nearly as high as it does here. Instead of the single Dread Wraith, the psion could deal with like 3 or 4 other opponents!

Don't want to play down the better force-based effects of the arcanists here, just saying that they do not come into play on an average day.

Also speed and defenses are not covered. If you would pitch the characters (i.e. one-on-one) against these opponents, the higher speed of the psion would be immensely important. Of course, the day would end after like 3 encounters then (especially when you go one-on-one), since much more power needs to be devoted to something other than offense.

Ok, I guess neglecting defenses is still ok (much easier to do at least ), since offense and defense are about equally useful and if you have twice as many encounters with offense only, it should come out as about even. But the speed should definitely be considered afterwards, because that will make a lot of difference in a "real" situation!

Then, as I said initially, the creatures should not be known, because then character choices will be made, which are specifically tailored for those opponents. Make a list of 20 such opponents with a reasonable spread and roll randomly, which one to face, deal with it, then roll up the next one (same opponents for all participants, of course). In this more realistic approach, the psion's flexibility will be much more valuable.

And last, the comparison should be done at an even and an odd level and the results averaged!

In a more realistic environment like this, the psion's advantages will show much better, I'm pretty sure.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

At 11th level, the sorcerer gains 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th and 1 5th level spells known. Vastly increasing the sorcerers flexibility. At lower levels it is more noticeable missing out on a spell level. 11th is a good sorcerer level.

Then let's do the comparison at 11th level instead.

I'm very sure the psion gains more than the sorcerer between those levels!

Secondly, I feel that comparing within these limits, PHB-XPH-DMG is too limiting, ...

I'm not aware of this limit, actually. Who said you can only use stuff from those books?

There are a few items, feats, powers in XPH which, to me, seem out of line with the power level established in the PHB. This is the case with every supplement I have ever set my eyes on.

Yep. I think the percentage of bad stuff is pretty high in the XPH, however.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

Don't want to play down the better force-based effects of the arcanists here, just saying that they do not come into play on an average day.

As a side note, the presumption that has been made by some in the course of this debate is that the ability to pick your energy is a telling advantage for psions, in part based upon the presumption you will regularly run into energy resisting creatures.

The planar handbook explicitly offers sorcerers an ability to replace half the energy of their spells with force damage. This says to me that the presumption is that energy resistance is not considered to be a frequent occurance in a typical campaign, but in a planar campaign where outsiders and extraplanar template creatures are more common, it is considered telling.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Two words: "Yeah, right."

I've played enough 3e to know that, past level 10, the majority of foes you face that isn't an NPC will have energy resistance or immunity of some kind. Just look through the Monster Manual.

CR 10s
Animated Object (collossal) sort of--hardness
bebelith--surprisingly, no
couatl--no
Formian, Mymarch--yes
Fire Giant--yes
Clay Golem--no but magic immunity
hydra, 11-headed--no
hydra, 9 headed pyro or cryo--yes
Naga, guardian--no
Rakshasa--no (not that it matters with SR 27)
Noble Salamander--yes
Slaad, gray--yes

CR 11
Barbed Devil--yes
Cauchemar--yes
devourer--no
elemental elder--varies (water and fire--yes)
cloud giant--no
Stone Golem--no but magic immunity
Half Celestial Paladin 9--yes
Half-Dragon Celestial Lamasu--yes
Harpy Archer--no
Hill Giant Wereboar--no
Hezrou--yes
Hydra--varies (cryo and pyro)
collossal monstrous spider--no
retriever--yes
troll hunter--no
dread wraith--no (though 50% immunity applies)

That's actually a surprisingly small number (about 50%) based on my experience. However, nearly all templates add some kind of elemental resistance and templated lower CR monsters (who may or may not have had resistances to start with) account for a lot of high CR challenges which may explain the difference between my experience and the Monster Manual.

At higher CRs, pretty much everything has energy resistance of some kind (there are only 9 or 10 monsters without energy resistance past CR 11 in the monster manual).

If the writers of the Planar Handbook assume that energy resistance is not a frequent occurence in a regular campaign, they have a really whacked out idea of what frequent means. . . or they use only a very limited selection of high CR creatures fromt the Monster Manual and don't use templates to create high CR creatures from lower CR ones.

Note also that the ability to select an energy type is, in many ways more advantageous than the ability to substitute half of a spell's damage for force. Selecting energy types freely enables you to target a creature's vulnerability (and a fair number of those foes DO have a vulnarability). Also, selecting energy types will usually enable you to bypass energy resistance entirely by targetting devils with lightning and demons with sonic energies. Substituting half of a spell's damage for force enables a reduced effect against incorporeal and energy immune creatures but isn't nearly as advantageous against creatures with resistance. For example, substituting half of a chain lightning spell's damage (let's say 14d6--average 49 points on a failed save, 24 points on a successful save) for force against a creature with electricity resist: 20 results in 29 points of damage on a failed save and 12 points of damage on a successful save. Without the force substitution, that's still 29 points of damage on a failed save and 4 points of damage on a successful save. Against a creature with electricity resistance: 10, it's 39 vs 39 points of damage on a failed save and 14 vs 14 points of damage on a failed save. It's useful for spells that deal their damage in small increments like the secondary arcs of a chain lightning spell or scorching ray but not significant for big boom spells like meteor swarm, delayed blast fireballs, and empowered cones of cold except on a successful save--and maybe not even then.

As a side note, the presumption that has been made by some in the course of this debate is that the ability to pick your energy is a telling advantage for psions, in part based upon the presumption you will regularly run into energy resisting creatures.

The planar handbook explicitly offers sorcerers an ability to replace half the energy of their spells with force damage. This says to me that the presumption is that energy resistance is not considered to be a frequent occurance in a typical campaign, but in a planar campaign where outsiders and extraplanar template creatures are more common, it is considered telling.

 

[Thanee]

The planar handbook explicitly offers sorcerers an ability to replace half the energy of their spells with force damage. This says to me that the presumption is that energy resistance is not considered to be a frequent occurance in a typical campaign, but in a planar campaign where outsiders and extraplanar template creatures are more common, it is considered telling.

Yeah, pretty much all outsiders have some energy resistance, as opposed to the 50% or so of the non-outsiders.

But even 50% is a high number opposed to the number of foes only decently damage-able by force effects.

Bye
Thanee