waxing philosophical on "low magic" versus "high fantasy"

der_kluge · Dec 21, 2004

I've been thinking about this topic lately.

In working on my campaign previously, I set out to make a "low magic" game. I also set out to make a realistic campaign, complete with knights and peasants, and nobility.

Then my sister was over at my place and she put in my Fantasia CD collection, and on the third collection (the collector's edition set) there is an image of a scene of a barge floating in the water in a swamp with these skyscraper-sized trees in the background - a very fantastical kind of place, that really inspired me.

So, it struck me, perhaps what I wasn't shooting for after all wasn't really "realistic" but something with some very fantastical elements. I came to the conclusion that when people yearn for "low magic"/"low fantasy" what they really seek is detail coupled with verisimilitude. The level of fantasy can be achieved completely autonomous from the level of magic or reality. I can still create a highly fantastical game that still is rich in detail and verisimilitude and garner the same results that I ultimately want to achieve.

This attitude shift has forced me to re-evaluate my campaign world on the whole. I *want* castles in the clouds, and I *want* dark, dreery swamps with sky-scraper tall trees, and cities beneath the water, and dungeons, and all the other weird and wonderful things about the world that I can dream up. I think what makes an interesting world for me is to explain them, and create them with detail, and history, and believability. I no longer see this as mutually exclusive of the magic level, and previously I had felt like they were tied.

Anyone else come to the same conclusion? Am I making any sense? Anyone disagree?

rounser · Dec 21, 2004

I came to the conclusion that when people yearn for "low magic"/"low fantasy" what they really seek is detail coupled with verisimilitude. The level of fantasy can be achieved completely autonomous from the level of magic or reality.

Perhaps a lot of people seek this, although I think there's a lot of association with "low magic" and "grim n gritty" themes. Perhaps that's divorced from low magic much as your fantastic world features are, but pausing to take in the wonder of something fantastic - such as skyscraper-height trees - is not a common theme in a "grim n gritty" world. That's far more likely to focus on the down and dirty (such as in the WHFRP model; plagues, chaos corrupting things and people, rat-catching, maimed beggars, inquisitions and demonology) rather than the fantastic and uplifting.

But as you point out, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive - I think it's just a matter of focus. In a "grim n gritty" campaign, cloud castles might distract from the fact that half the party is dying from infected wounds, for instance. :heh:

Oh...and told you we were due for one, hong.

barsoomcore · Dec 21, 2004

Barsoom

Red skies. Flying ironclads. Dinosaur-riding armies. Giant cats the size of castles. Thousand-year-old vampire sorceresses. Flintlocks and rapiers. Pyramids. Haunted fortresses and fairy queens. Genies, dragon-wizards, mechanized warriors, cities that spiral up into the sky, spider-women and scorpion-men, undead assassins and secret societies breeding super-psions.

It's low-magic.

Tonguez · Dec 21, 2004

Yes Fairy Tale worlds are exactly what I love - Castles in the Clouds, Dreary Swamps and fearsome caverns wherein the PCs are young rogues trying to survive or lost princesses hiding from danger or noble woodcutters and brave huntsmen caring for hearth and home or even the occasional gnome.

Thats a game world I would love to play in (and yes I hear that Grimm Tales tries to capture it) a Low Magic world of wonderous possibilities

stevelabny · Dec 21, 2004

And then there's Eberron.
Low-level magic is everywhere but high-level magic is much more rare.
Plus the use of magic is factored in to daily life in a way that most other settings just ignore.

Desdichado · Dec 21, 2004

die_kluge said:
So, it struck me, perhaps what I wasn't shooting for after all wasn't really "realistic" but something with some very fantastical elements. I came to the conclusion that when people yearn for "low magic"/"low fantasy" what they really seek is detail coupled with verisimilitude. The level of fantasy can be achieved completely autonomous from the level of magic or reality. I can still create a highly fantastical game that still is rich in detail and verisimilitude and garner the same results that I ultimately want to achieve.

I think you've reduced the low magic crowd a bit more than is supportable. My low magic world is chock full of highly fantastic elements, although the PCs have still only started to glimpse them.

Part of it is tone. rounser was on the right track, although I think he reduced it too much as well. The high magic setting can end up feeling like 'fantasy superheroes' and many times that's simply not what is wanted. In my case, certainly, I usually don't. I like the idea of the heroes actually having to struggle and overcome incredible odds from a position that appears, at first glance, to be of weakness.

And part of it, which I've heard from many but I'm not entirely certain if this is my position or not, think that fantastic elements are actually much reduced in their fantastic qualities if you can look on the third paragraph on page 278 of the PHB, or wherever, and see exactly how the fantastic element was created, and they can do it too as a routine event once they're high enough level.

Interesting spin on an overdue low magic discussion, die_kluge!

GlassJaw · Dec 21, 2004

Anyone else come to the same conclusion?

Nope, I really want low-magic.

It also depends on how you define "low-magic". Do you equate low-magic with magic being rare but not necessarily low-power, a la Midnight? Or low-magic meaning low-power? Or low-magic meaning no magic items? Or low-magic meaning no magic like a completely realistic setting? You get the idea.

For the campaign I'm working on now (Grim Tales), I want to control the introduction of all magic. There are no caster classes or guaranteed spells. Everything must be found, learned, etc. Now that's not to say there still aren't fantasy elements in the setting, although they won't be very evident early on.

I think the most common definition of low-magic is "not like standard D&D", which usually means changing the magic system in some way. You can still have floating clould castles but no wizards and still consider it a low-magic world.

GuardianLurker · Dec 21, 2004

"Free" vs. "Bound"

Actually, I think a better distinction is that between "Free" magic - magic available/usable by PCs, and "Bound" magic - environmental magic.

If the "Free" magic is low-powered and/or rare, the setting will likely feel like low-magic to your players, no matter how many flying skyscraper trees you put in.

Contrariwise, when "Free" magic is high-powered or very common, the setting will feel like high-magic, no matter how mundane the environment.

All of the WotC official settings are high-magic; by default D&D is high-magic, since it assumes there will be mages casting Wish and knights with +5 Holy Vorpal Swords of God-bane.

Of course, if you have a lot of high-powered environmental magic, you will have to explain it. You'll also have to resist the temptation to have a race (especially a player race) able to manipulate it.

Doctor Shaft · Dec 21, 2004

I don't know. While I can agree that ultimately we are all trying to create a fantastic world with the differences merely being the details of how said work is explained or works, low magic is definitely not too simple a thing. I think the magic level still does play a part in just how those fantastic elements tend to work out.

Nearly any D&D standard campaign can be looked as a highly fantastic world with super heroes. The system used is simple yet creative, and you expend tons of GP values to customize your character to better suit the superhero template. You have standard access to items that essentially make the character. It's a world where magic is very much involved in achieving nearly any task.

Low-magic still has the fantastic elements, but I like to think that it's a different kind of fantasy. One that really does tend to not focus too much on the world so much as it does on the PC's struggles with it. Players have seen virtually every fantasy world possible. We still have room left to make creative campaigns, but essentially we'll almost never be completely or totally surprised by any worlds twists or turns, even though we may enjoy them a great deal.

So I see the magic levels as being very much connected with the world. The more 'power' you have or the easier it is to access, the more attention gets diverted to that part. There's no escaping the image or idea of a part of demi-gods. When PC's are very strong, the focus of the campaign tends to shift onto the strength of the characters instead of the greatness or vastness of the environment. When they're not so strong, the PC's are still of course the focus, but there's much more attention paid to the outside world, since it becomes such a factor when you spend more time trying to survive against typically more awesome or mystically powered forces.

Brother MacLaren · Dec 21, 2004

Joshua Dyal said:
And part of it, which I've heard from many but I'm not entirely certain if this is my position or not, think that fantastic elements are actually much reduced in their fantastic qualities if you can look on the third paragraph on page 278 of the PHB, or wherever, and see exactly how the fantastic element was created, and they can do it too as a routine event once they're high enough level.

I think this is my position - I want magic to be wondrous and amazing (and, depending on the setting, somewhat scary). I don't want it to be cheapened by becoming commonplace. I think standard D&D takes magic for granted, but by mixing up the spell list and monster abilities the DM can make thing intriguing and frightening again. The living dead climbing out of their graves and attacking you should be a scene of utmost horror and not (much as I like the show) a comically routine bit out of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Okay, there are some games where that's fine, but in general, not the vibe I want.