waxing philosophical on "low magic" versus "high fantasy"

[reanjr]

I've been thinking about this topic lately.

In working on my campaign previously, I set out to make a "low magic" game. I also set out to make a realistic campaign, complete with knights and peasants, and nobility.

Then my sister was over at my place and she put in my Fantasia CD collection, and on the third collection (the collector's edition set) there is an image of a scene of a barge floating in the water in a swamp with these skyscraper-sized trees in the background - a very fantastical kind of place, that really inspired me.

So, it struck me, perhaps what I wasn't shooting for after all wasn't really "realistic" but something with some very fantastical elements. I came to the conclusion that when people yearn for "low magic"/"low fantasy" what they really seek is detail coupled with verisimilitude. The level of fantasy can be achieved completely autonomous from the level of magic or reality. I can still create a highly fantastical game that still is rich in detail and verisimilitude and garner the same results that I ultimately want to achieve.

This attitude shift has forced me to re-evaluate my campaign world on the whole. I *want* castles in the clouds, and I *want* dark, dreery swamps with sky-scraper tall trees, and cities beneath the water, and dungeons, and all the other weird and wonderful things about the world that I can dream up. I think what makes an interesting world for me is to explain them, and create them with detail, and history, and believability. I no longer see this as mutually exclusive of the magic level, and previously I had felt like they were tied.

Anyone else come to the same conclusion? Am I making any sense? Anyone disagree?

I think what you are really discovering is that "high" magic should be reserved for story elements. That's what irks people the most, I think. These plot device things (like floating castles, skyscraper trees, etc.) can be accomplished by any wizard of sufficiently high level. (Any sufficiently prevalent level of magic can not be distinguished from technology)

 

[WayneLigon]

Anyone else come to the same conclusion? Am I making any sense? Anyone disagree?

You have taken your first step into a larger world

 

[The Shaman]

And then there's Eberron.
Low-level magic is everywhere but high-level magic is much more rare.
Plus the use of magic is factored in to daily life in a way that most other settings just ignore.

And that's exactly what I try to avoid in my campaign settings.

Every village doesn't have a cleric who can cast healing spells - people die from accidents and illnesses.

Every town doesn't have a wizard who pens magic scrolls - all magic items are rare, with the possible exception of potions, which are merely uncommon.

Every ship doesn't have a weather-working elementalist. Every forest isn't protected by druids. Every minstrel cannot inspire feats of bravery.

People in my campaign know magic is out there, and they may witness it in action anywhere from a handful of times to quite often in their lives, but for the majority of the characters dwelling in my campaign settings it is not a part of the daily fabric of their existence.

I stopped thinking of it as "high" or "low" magic, and started calling it "rare" magic. Magic-users are rare, magic items much rarer still.

So what about fantastic landscapes? In my setting you will find a forest that is temperate year round in a valley above the arctic circle - it was planted by the goddess of nature herself. There is a mountain that was raised by the god of the earth and is said to contain his tomb. Seafarers are on the lookout for a magical storm (think of an advanced tempest elemental that creates a wild magic zone) that wanders the oceans. A huge sentient seaweed raft can be found on that same ocean. Trees that defy the normal laws of gravity, moons guided by a divine hand rather than the laws of physics, a magical desert of shifting dunes and drifting oases - the fact that magic is rare doesn't mean that these landscapes don't exist in my setting.

These landscapes can be of divine origin, the effect of magics lost to the understanding of the present age, or simply anomalies that no one can adequately explain. To be sure all of them have their share of legends and myths, some true, some anything but.

That's how I approach it. Personally I think magic is more fantastic when it's not commonplace and mundane, and that's how I build my settings.

 

[Tonguez]

ANother thing which seems to work is to remove Arcane spellcasters!

Make ALL magic divine in origin and make those with access to it roleplay for it.

The gods and spirits of the world (ie the DM) are free to create fantastic landscapes, the Ice Queen can conjure her palace of eternal ice and snow, her sister the Queen of Arcadia can take her rade across the sky, and the ancient King of the Mountain can raise pinnacles of impossible size.

Yes you can have clerics and druids and even Scorcerers and 'witches' withfamiliar spirits in the form of toads and cats. Indeed Bob the blacksmith can even call on the spirit of his forge to enchant the Sword he is crafting with a burst of fire

but nonetheless ALL magic comes out of negotiation and 'contract' with spirits who are all NPCs which the DM controls.

 

[Serps]

Looks like you're trying to recreate a 'fairytale' setting - wondrous items, events and settings, but not magic as a universal tool.

 

[icedrake]

I find that there are two different sides of the "low" magic game that people end up splitting: whether or not to give their players magic. Those who opp out of giving players the chance to play spellcasters, imo, leave out an important reason why I play DnD. Whether or not the campaign world itself has a vast amount of arcane energy around, as in Forgotten Realms, to me, the players are some of the rare few who get the chance to wield the powers average Shawn the Serf only dream about. Its a bit like The Fellowship of the Ring like when Gandalf makes his way to the Shire to display his magical fireworks. Few hobbits can say they were alive when they last saw them, but Frodo and his friends are some of the few that can say they saw the wizard fight a Balrog.

This leads me to agree with the orginal poster's conclusions that I want magic rich parties visiting places of wonder, but the world itself does not depend on the flow of magic.

Make ALL magic divine in origin and make those with access to it roleplay for it.

I really like this idea. Though not a "low" magic world, Rokugan uses the Shugenja class from Complete Divine and really like the idea of using the same spellcaster class, but having different schools and elements the player chooses to access. I like giving my players access to what they are familiar with (the PHB), but creating a world that uses classes and items they know in an unfamiliar way.

 

[Fenes]

I want to avoid the "magic=tool" mindset. I don't want magic replacing technology, and spells just being another item, and magic items something you buy in a shop, and pick and choose for best efficiency.

I aim for this by making magic items rare, and magic users uncommon.

 

[Berandor]

I also don't like the ubiquitous nature of magic in D&D. I want low-magic, high-fantasy. I don't mind magical places. I don't mind deities walking the land. I also don't mind having spell-casting characters. But I don't like if it's nothing special, if the 14th-level wizard can simply cast a spell and yawningly recreate these wonders.

That's it. I want magic to be wonderful. I want "fireball" to be one of the most potent and rare magicks one can achieve, not a wizardly artillery gun. I want "resurrection" to be a unique occurence, not something a mid-level cleric churns out like eggs in a battery. Divine Favor should feel divine, Arcane Sight be a revelation.

I want magic to be magical.

 

[Geoff Watson]

I want magic to be magical.

The problem with making 'magic' magical (ie mysterious); is that you have to make it a mystery to the players, which makes spellcasters nearly unplayable.

It also means that all 'magic' is at the DMs whim; many players prefer clear rules.

Geoff.

 

[rounser]

The problem with making 'magic' magical (ie mysterious); is that you have to make it a mystery to the players, which makes spellcasters nearly unplayable.

I'm not certain you need to ban it from PCs by allowing no PC wizards; just make it about as rare as psionics is in the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, or as rare as wizards and magic items are in Middle Earth.

I think one of the appeals of psionics to those who are such hardcore fans of it is that it is rare and special in a way that magic perhaps should be, but because this is D&D (and that as of 3E the saturation level of magic and magic-users in the core rules' implied setting has reached all-time highs), that particular horse has long been beaten to death, buried, dug up again and beaten some more.