waxing philosophical on "low magic" versus "high fantasy"

[Berandor]

I don't really need magic be mysterious. I just need it to be "special".

Off the top of my head, I'd change a wizard thusly:
Cleric BAB
d6 hit points
6+int skill points
Every 4 levels a new spell level.

I'd also redistribute spells, making more utility spells low-level and combat spells and similar effects higher level (In truth, I'd probably not use D&D magic, but this is for clarification).
So at level 12, a wizard might learn fireball, or dispel magic. At level 16, he might teleport for the first time. That would redistribute magical powers, and casting fireball would be a special deed.
But again, I'd probably shy away from D&D magic altogether.

Sometimes I'd like to make my own game system - but then who'd play it?

 

[diaglo]

i build the world from the PCs perspective.

1st lvl PCs in a County surrounded by safer guards. = sheltered.

what the players know and what the PCs know = the same.

they, both, believe they are safe. that the world is low in magic. that things that go bump in the night are easily handled.

as they explore. they find/discover the truth. the trick for them is not spoiling the safe net for their loved ones. coming back with stories of horrible magic. of big nasty monsters. of hoards of treasure. of evil long dead wizards. and such...

chicken little syndrome.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I don't really need magic be mysterious. I just need it to be "special".

You can go a long way to this without hurting the players much at all by nerfing NPC spellcasters like this:
1) It is not true that anybody with the intelligence and training can become a wizard. The Gift only occurs in certain individuals (which happens to include all PCs).
2) Throw out the DMG demographics. Only have as many NPC casters as you think reasonable - and make it finite.
3) Have people react to magic as if it's rare and wondrous, and have certain spells be legendary. When PCs show off these skills, their abilities become renowned... not always a good thing.
4) The only part that affects class abilities - no magic libraries and no automatic 2 spells per level (and, possibly, remove the "instant total spell list access" for divine casters). Instead, PCs have to find the spells. Compensate them in some way, give them some clue about what spells are likely to be rare, and make sure the players trust you to not entirely hose them.
5) NPC priests don't necessarily prepare spells - they just ask the gods for miracles, and miracles either occur or don't. PC clerics are somehow marked or favored by the gods and enjoy the god's trust - they are given as much power as they can handle, and held accountable after using it.

This changes two basic principles of 3E: 1) and 5) violate "PCs are just like NPCs" and 2) makes it possible that PCs will become powerful players in the world at an earlier level. Neither one is game-breaking. Just roll with it. PCs can cast Teleport and nobody else can? Good for them, let them enjoy it... but when word of their secret gets around, the other 9 double-digit-level wizards in the world (including the 2 liches who have been searching for this spell for centuries) will come gunning for them.

3E postulates commonplace magic as a way of keeping down PC casters. I don't think that's necessary (challenge them with outer-planar adventures, or monsters rather than NPC casters based in their world).
Edit: and diaglo's idea is excellent. The PCs start the game ignorant. Maybe they know of a wizard.

 

[Psion]

This attitude shift has forced me to re-evaluate my campaign world on the whole. I *want* castles in the clouds, and I *want* dark, dreery swamps with sky-scraper tall trees, and cities beneath the water, and dungeons, and all the other weird and wonderful things about the world that I can dream up. I think what makes an interesting world for me is to explain them, and create them with detail, and history, and believability. I no longer see this as mutually exclusive of the magic level, and previously I had felt like they were tied.

Anyone else come to the same conclusion? Am I making any sense? Anyone disagree?

I think often when people say "low magic" they really mean not "convenient magic" or "ubiquitous magic." Which is really only one lever amongst many you can tweak in your game.

 

[der_kluge]

I think when I say low magic, I do mean "rare magic". That's a good distinction to make. I don't want to make magic available to only a select few - that's just artificially limiting. I want to make it available to anyone who is smart enough, and lucky enough to acquire and learn such things. But, in a world of mostly illiterate peasants, having those requirements won't be an easy task.

I like the idea that there are unexplained, yet powerful things in the world, that as Diaglo says, are unknown to the players initially, and far removed from their safe starting points. I want to be able to include fantastical elements created from a bygone era. I don't want to stifle the power of magic, nor would I want to nerf spellcasters in the party just because, but I do think the current advancement for spellcasters in d20 just doesn't suit me. In the RAW, wizards can fly around and toss off a fireball by 5th level. That's something I'd rather avoid if possible.

I also see magic as a skill to learn, versus it being "who you are". But, that's a flame war better suited to another thread.

 

[diaglo]

imagine a naive population.

you ask them what the moon, the stars, the sun mean to them.

they wax and wane about the philo they know.

after they finish. they ask you what they mean to you.

you tell them about magic, about spaceships, about gods walking on the planet...

they look at you and nod or step a little away from you... either way they think you are "touched" in the head or downright crazy.

then you cast a spell.... they either burn you at the stake, begin worshipping you as a god, or flee.

 

[Afrodyte]

The gods and spirits of the world (ie the DM) are free to create fantastic landscapes, the Ice Queen can conjure her palace of eternal ice and snow, her sister the Queen of Arcadia can take her rade across the sky, and the ancient King of the Mountain can raise pinnacles of impossible size.

Yes you can have clerics and druids and even Scorcerers and 'witches' withfamiliar spirits in the form of toads and cats. Indeed Bob the blacksmith can even call on the spirit of his forge to enchant the Sword he is crafting with a burst of fire.

But nonetheless ALL magic comes out of negotiation and 'contract' with spirits who are all NPCs which the DM controls.

This is precisely the approach that I'm trying to take with my campaign setting. Magic, especially arcane magic, is something generally not in the hands of human beings. Angels, demons, fey, djinn, dragons, and gods wield magic, not ordinary humans. Any human being who wields magic does so because they have been granted these powers from these sources in some way, such as being descended from them, barganing with them, or being given a gift from them. All in all, humans would be rightly suspicious of humans who use magic.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

I'm a real fan of Mongoose's definition of low-magic, from the Conan setting: That is, a world where magic isn't frivolous. There aren't elemental powered carts and a potion for every ailment. This isn't to say that the adventures aren't fantastic, hell, Robert E. Howard's Conan novel "The Hour of the Dragon" has tons of magic in it, it just isn't...mundane.

 

[RobJN]

I've never really liked 3.x's unstated-but-implied "Magick-Shoppe-on-Every-Corner" vibe.

Like many post-ers, I like my magic to be magical. When the guy in robes waves his hands and mutters, the local peasants don't automatically run screaming "OMG!! HE'S CASTING fireball. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

The approach I've taken in my homebrew tinkerings has been something close to pre-5th Age DragonLance (mages are scooped up, tested, and -- should they survive...er... pass-- they police themselves); the battles of mages are not something the general public ever sees, or would even necessarily know about.

The other approach in my current setting has been one of severe limitations. Magic was responsible for reshaping the land and destroying several kingdoms. As a result, magic-users are not trusted. Sorcerers are exiled if they're lucky. Wizards are an object of pity by some (picking through dusty towers and ruins, looking for bits and scraps of their former power); higher level mages are rare -- mainly because they found the lost goodies before the other guy could. The "locals" think that sorcerers and wizards get their powers by bargaining with demons and devils. And the local temples, of course, do nothing to curb those notions. It suits their interests if they are seen as the one "true" source of magical power.

Each setting has its fantastic elements, but as has been stated before, they are more a product of the fabric of the setting than the doings of anyone the PCs would ever associate with. Some are breathtaking marvels, others grim reminders of the consequences of meddling with Powers Best Left Untapped.

Food for thought,

Rob

 

[Desdichado]

The "locals" think that sorcerers and wizards get their powers by bargaining with demons and devils. And the local temples, of course, do nothing to curb those notions.

In my setting, that's actually fairly true.