ranged attacks/flanking/sneak attacks...

Sir ThornCrest · Feb 25, 2005

interested to see your house rules or if you go by the book, how would you treat the following?

lets say a 12th level ranger with a 45' piont blank shot has 6 ogres in that radius around him, the ranger has combat reflexes and a 18 dex, all but 1 Ogre is in melee with a party member fighters. The Ranger choses to fire at the Ogre not in melee combat, first, then fires at 3 other Ogres.

#1) Can the party Rogue get to sneak attack any of Ogre's, including the one not in melee?
#2) Does the Ranger by threatening the Ogres give his fighters the +2 to hit flanking bonus?
#3) Does the Ranger get any flanking bonus to hit?
#4) Can the Ranger inact his combat relexes to get 4 bonus shots per round?
#5) If the Rogue sneak attacks the Ogre not in melee does the Ranger gain a flanking bonus on that Ogre the next round?

Thorncrest

Diirk · Feb 25, 2005

Sir ThornCrest said:
interested to see your house rules or if you go by the book, how would you treat the following?

lets say a 12th level ranger with a 45' piont blank shot has 6 ogres in that radius around him, the ranger has combat reflexes and a 18 dex, all but 1 Ogre is in melee with a party member fighters. The Ranger choses to fire at the Ogre not in melee combat, first, then fires at 3 other Ogres.

#1) Can the party Rogue get to sneak attack any of Ogre's, including the one not in melee?
#2) Does the Ranger by threatening the Ogres give his fighters the +2 to hit flanking bonus?
#3) Does the Ranger get any flanking bonus to hit?
#4) Can the Ranger inact his combat relexes to get 4 bonus shots per round?
#5) If the Rogue sneak attacks the Ogre not in melee does the Ranger gain a flanking bonus on that Ogre the next round?

Thorncrest

First, how did he get a 45' point blank shot? Is this some funky PrC ability or a house rule?

The answer to your questions is 'no'. Ranged weapons don't threaten, so opponents don't provoke AoOs from the ranger. And flanking is a purely melee combat thing, the ranger doesn't provide or benefit from any flanking bonuses.. he also doesn't help the rogue get sneak attacks.

Lasher Dragon · Feb 25, 2005

The games I play in, point blank+farshot=45' range for sneak attacks & the +1 for point blank. Also, ranged attacks can receive flank from a melee attacker on the opposite side of an enemy, but the melee guy doesn't receive flank. So, in our games, you could SA anyone within 45' that you are considered to have flank with.

Tons of people say this is broken, how could we play this way, yadda yadda, but we have been doing it for years, no one thinks it's broken (no, not even the DMs), and I personally have not seen that it makes the game too easy.

As for AoO with a bow, we don't get that without some cool new spell, like Arrow Mind in CAdv, but that only allows AoO within 5' (Unless you naturally have reach, which makes no sense to me

)

fett527 · Feb 25, 2005

Sir ThornCrest said:
interested to see your house rules or if you go by the book, how would you treat the following?

lets say a 12th level ranger with a 45' piont blank shot has 6 ogres in that radius around him, the ranger has combat reflexes and a 18 dex, all but 1 Ogre is in melee with a party member fighters. The Ranger choses to fire at the Ogre not in melee combat, first, then fires at 3 other Ogres.

#1) Can the party Rogue get to sneak attack any of Ogre's, including the one not in melee?
#2) Does the Ranger by threatening the Ogres give his fighters the +2 to hit flanking bonus?
#3) Does the Ranger get any flanking bonus to hit?
#4) Can the Ranger inact his combat relexes to get 4 bonus shots per round?
#5) If the Rogue sneak attacks the Ogre not in melee does the Ranger gain a flanking bonus on that Ogre the next round?

Thorncrest

On the 45' PB, we've done this before with Far shot. Far shot: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1-1/2). We would apply this to PB range.

On the rest, the situation is too vague to answer #1 effectively:

#2 Ranger doesn't threaten with ranged weapon
#3 Ranger cannot flank with ranged weapon
#4 Combat reflexes only give you additional AOOs. You must threaten to get an AOO.
#5 See #3

Sir ThornCrest · Feb 25, 2005

OK, so somebody in combat doesnt trigger an attack of opp but if they run by you or you run by them it does? If so at what range with a bow do you get AoO?

Thorncrest

fett527 said:
On the 45' PB, we've done this before with Far shot. Far shot: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1-1/2). We would apply this to PB range.

On the rest, the situation is too vague to answer #1 effectively:

#2 Ranger doesn't threaten with ranged weapon
#3 Ranger cannot flank with ranged weapon
#4 Combat reflexes only give you additional AOOs. You must threaten to get an AOO.
#5 See #3

Lasher Dragon · Feb 25, 2005

Sir ThornCrest said:
OK, so somebody in combat doesnt trigger an attack of opp but if they run by you or you run by them it does? If so at what range with a bow do you get AoO?

Thorncrest

Short of that Arrow Mind spell, you don't, ever, and it gives AoO up to your natural reach. Usually, within 5' of you.

Well, AFAIK anyway - there may be other things that let you make AoO with a bow.

Kalendraf · Feb 25, 2005

Lasher Dragon said:
Also, ranged attacks can receive flank from a melee attacker on the opposite side of an enemy, but the melee guy doesn't receive flank. So, in our games, you could SA anyone within 45' that you are considered to have flank with.

Tons of people say this is broken, how could we play this way, yadda yadda, but we have been doing it for years, no one thinks it's broken (no, not even the DMs), and I personally have not seen that it makes the game too easy.

That's how I used to rule things until I figured out it was wrong. I'd totally missed the spot in the rules that says you can only flank with melee weapons. After seeing the before and after, I would have to say it's much better to go by the book on this one. Otherwise the ranged sneak attacks just get way out of hand.

azmodean · Feb 25, 2005

I'm afraid nobody can really answer your questions because the RAW just does not apply to your situation. These are things you or your DM will have to determine as extensions to the ranged flanking house rule you are using.

Lasher Dragon · Feb 25, 2005

Like I said, that's just how things are played in my neck of the woods, and has been since 3.0 came out. So far, no one has had any problems with it. Of course, we also play with miniatures <gasp!> and sometimes up to and above 40 point buys <double gasp!!>

PC's die all the time too... nearly every DM gives monsters max HP, and most of them will also boost the monsters in other ways, be it higher abilities, a sprinkling of class levels, nasty feats/special qualities, etc.

If you are a monster and are getting shot in the back by some nasty little rogue, meanwhile the guy swinging the sword in front of you isn't doing as much damage, you are going to go stomp the life out of the little guy with the bow. In our games, rogues are constantly jockeying for tactical positions, and having to tumble past and/or through a monster's area.

DM_Matt · Feb 25, 2005

azmodean said:
I'm afraid nobody can really answer your questions because the RAW just does not apply to your situation.

Uh, no, RAW DOES apply very well. You dont threaten with a bow, and thus you cant make AOOs with it or flank with it. If you cant flank with it, you can't gain a sneak attack from flanking with a bow. To sneak attack with a bow, your enemy needs to be denied their dex bonus somehow.

ranged attacks/flanking/sneak attacks...

Sir ThornCrest

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Diirk

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Lasher Dragon

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fett527

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Sir ThornCrest

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Lasher Dragon

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Kalendraf

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azmodean

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DM_Matt

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