ranged attacks/flanking/sneak attacks...

[IcyCool]

it says range increments are x 1.5 farther period.

Thorncrest

Right. A Range Increment is a game term defining how far a particular ranged weapon can shoot before incurring a certain penalty. Each ranged weapon is listed with a Range Increment.

The sneak attack ability and Point Blank Shot feat make no mention of a Range Increment. Therefore, there is no Range Increment to be increased.

Edited to add the relevant entries from the SRD:

POINT BLANK SHOT [GENERAL]

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.

Special: A fighter may select Point Blank Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

FAR SHOT [GENERAL]

Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot.

Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1-1/2). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

Special: A fighter may select Far Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

 

[atom crash]

Range Increment: Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, each full range increment imposes a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments.

Point Blank Shot and Far Shot are not range increments. There is no point blank range RAW, except in the context of Point Blank Shot, which applies to any ranged attack within 30'.

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

Ive always considered high level Rogues less than par for the course

So maybe our group house rules them to make them more effective? But honestly we all (our entire gaming group, and other gaming groups) all give a 45' piont blank for any one with far shot.

If enemy is in combat with someone and he attempts to defend himself vs. an incoming arrow he earns an AoO. This is done out of logic, if in combat and he concentrated on deflecting an arrow or tries to move to avoid then the guy fighting him will more often than not get a free go at him for not paying attention.

If in combat and the rogue is behind or to the side of enemy he will get a flank/sneak attack with a melee, projectile or thrown weapon attack.

I suppose were trying to help the rogue out. Otherwise his combat input would be of very little importance.

Thorncrest

Right. A Range Increment is a game term defining how far a particular ranged weapon can shoot before incurring a certain penalty. Each ranged weapon is listed with a Range Increment.

The sneak attack ability and Point Blank Shot feat make no mention of a Range Increment. Therefore, there is no Range Increment to be increased.

Edited to add the relevant entries from the SRD:

 

[Deset Gled]

So maybe our group house rules them to make them more effective? But honestly we all (our entire gaming group, and other gaming groups) all give a 45' piont blank for any one with far shot.

If enemy is in combat with someone and he attempts to defend himself vs. an incoming arrow he earns an AoO. This is done out of logic, if in combat and he concentrated on deflecting an arrow or tries to move to avoid then the guy fighting him will more often than not get a free go at him for not paying attention.

If in combat and the rogue is behind or to the side of enemy he will get a flank/sneak attack with a melee, projectile or thrown weapon attack.

I suppose were trying to help the rogue out. Otherwise his combat input would be of very little importance.

Thorncrest

The examples you give above are all house rules.

An AoO is never "earned", it is something that is provoked by a character when they do something to open themselves to extra damage in combat. Getting shot by a ranged attack is not one of these things. Firing an arrow while threated by another character is.

There is no facing in D+D 3.0 or 3.5. It sounds like you guys are using the Backstab rules from 2nd edition. This is probably what is causing your rogues to be less combat effective. I recommend reading over the rules for Sneak Attacks and the Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks article at wizards.com to familiarize yourself with 3.5 rules (if that's what you want to play). Rogues in 3.0 and 3.5 are far from underpowered.

 

[Mahali]

If enemy is in combat with someone and he attempts to defend himself vs. an incoming arrow he earns an AoO. This is done out of logic, if in combat and he concentrated on deflecting an arrow or tries to move to avoid then the guy fighting him will more often than not get a free go at him for not paying attention.

If in combat and the rogue is behind or to the side of enemy he will get a flank/sneak attack with a melee, projectile or thrown weapon attack.

I suppose were trying to help the rogue out. Otherwise his combat input would be of very little importance.

Thorncrest

/sarcasm
If a wizard tries to cast a spell it does nothing. This is done out of logic because spells don't exist.
/sarcasm

But serisouly, go play Amtgard. When you're fighting people and an arrow comes your way you won't get pounded by the people you're fighting because you trying to dodging an arrow. You duck, block, or slap it down (if you are the appropriate class) as part of the melee, you're not lowering your defenses against the people w/ swords and polearms at all. Also, they don't want to be hit by the arrow either. "There is no such thing as friendly fire".
On another note game balance is preserved by following most of the RAW.

Rogues contribute amazing well without all the the huge bonuses you want to give them. They can't do it safely while hovering of flying like you allow, they actually have to get into combat holding a pointy object and risk something!

 

[Sir ThornCrest]

I just spoke with the player who likes playing rogues

He siad opurtunist, -when someone gets hit he jumps in and sneak attacks them, I knew it was something like this and I was getting frusterated.

Thorncrest

/sarcasm
If a wizard tries to cast a spell it does nothing. This is done out of logic because spells don't exist.
/sarcasm

But serisouly, go play Amtgard. When you're fighting people and an arrow comes your way you won't get pounded by the people you're fighting because you trying to dodging an arrow. You duck, block, or slap it down (if you are the appropriate class) as part of the melee, you're not lowering your defenses against the people w/ swords and polearms at all. Also, they don't want to be hit by the arrow either. "There is no such thing as friendly fire".
On another note game balance is preserved by following most of the RAW.

Rogues contribute amazing well without all the the huge bonuses you want to give them. They can't do it safely while hovering of flying like you allow, they actually have to get into combat holding a pointy object and risk something!

 

[Deset Gled]

He siad opurtunist, -when someone gets hit he jumps in and sneak attacks them, I knew it was something like this and I was getting frusterated.

Thorncrest

I believe the ability you are referring to is:

Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

This is a rogue Special Ability available as early as 10th level.

Note that the rogue must be threatening the target (which means using a melee weapon), and the target must also be attacked another character with a melee weapon. If either the rogue or his ally use ranged attacks, the ability cannot be used.

 

[Lasher Dragon]

Ahhhh don't get frustrated Sir... everyone I know and game with (around 20-30 people) all allow ranged flank sneak attacks. No, it's not by the RAW, but that's how we play it and have done so for a looong time. Ditto with the farshot increasing the point-blank/sneak attack ranges. You will be much ballyhooed on these boards for playing this way, but ignore it. If you guys have fun, and the rogue isn't the supreme killer in the party (which I can almost guarantee he is not, although I think you guys go even farther with house rules than we do) then don't worry about the RAW way and play your way.

 

[Coredump]

Sir Thorncrest,

From this, and other threads, it appears you group plays a very high powered campaign, and one with lots of house rules that make the players even more powerful. This is not necessarily bad, but you should realize that there are many instances where you are not following the rules as written.
This does lead to trouble like your wizard player having such a high Wil save, and high AC and such. It is hard to know what the repurcussions are from changing various rules, especially when those changes start getting compounded together.

[editors note: What follows are rules, and conclusions from rules. Like most things in DnD, there are some limited exceptions to most rules, whether from feats, spells, etc. Those have been mostly ignored. This concentrates on the 98%, not the 2%]

As has been said.

*You do not threaten with a ranged weapon.
*Getting shot by an arrow does NOT provoke and AoO.
*You cannot take an AoO with a ranged weapon.
*You cannot flank with a ranged weapon.
*You *can* sneak attack with a ranged weapon, but not from flanking.
*PB shot states 30', that has nothing to do with a range increment. The 30' is the same using a dagger or a longbow. Farshot affects range increments, not PBS.
*Combat reflexes only helps if someone else triggers an AoO. And it doesn't help at all if you are using a ranged weapon. (since not AoO)
*Stabbing a guy in the back is not flanking. Being in melee on one side, with a buddy on the other side, that is flanking.
*There is no 'back stab' any more. It is Sneak Attack, it no longer has to do with being 'behind' them.
*The enemys isn't 'flanked', You are flanking the enemy. So if two of you are flanking the enemy, your friend the rogue still can't sneak attack with an arrow.
*'Opportunist' is only used once per round, and only with a melee weapon, and only if you are already threatening the target, and only if the target was struck with a melee weapon.
​

With these rules in mind, I will try and answer your questions, using the written rules.

#1) Can the party Rogue get to sneak attack any of Ogre's, including the one not in melee?
If he can get on the other side of the Ogres that are in melee, then he is flanking, and will get Sneak Attack damage. This is only the case if the rogue is using a melee weapon.
He cannot SA the Ogre not in melee, unless the Ogre is flatfooted, or he feints, or similar. In this case, he could even use a ranged weapon.

#2) Does the Ranger by threatening the Ogres give his fighters the +2 to hit flanking bonus?
The Range is is not threatening anyone. You cannot threaten with a ranged weapon.

#3) Does the Ranger get any flanking bonus to hit?
The Ranger cannot flank with a ranged weapon, so no flanking bonus

#4) Can the Ranger inact his combat relexes to get 4 bonus shots per round?
Combat reflexes *only* helps if creatures are doing things that would allow for an AoO. And the Ranger still couldn't use it, since no AoO's with a ranged weapon.

#5) If the Rogue sneak attacks the Ogre not in melee does the Ranger gain a flanking bonus on that Ogre the next round?
Assuming this is the first round, and the Rogue wins initiative, and thus actually can SA the Ogre... the Ranger still does not get a flanking bonus, since you cannot flank with a ranged weapon.

OK, so somebody in combat doesnt trigger an attack of opp but if they run by you or you run by them it does?
Just being in combat does not trigger and AoO. But certain things you do in combat might. Such as standing up, or drinking a potion. Leaving a threatened square also triggers an AoO, so if they run by you, they will enter, and then leave a threatened square, and thus trigger an AoO, but *only* from YOU. It is not a free for all. (This also assumes you are using a melee weapon, they can run by the archer without a concern.)
If you run by them, then they get an AoO on you, you don't get one on them.

If so at what range with a bow do you get AoO?
Bows do not threaten. Bows do not get AoO. So the range question is not relevant.

So if you can never get a flank with bow then that means a rogue cannot sneak/flank attack with one?
Flanking is only one situation that allows for SA. If you win initiative, the opponent is flatfooted for the first round, and thus you get SA. If you are invisible, they are denied Dex bonus, so you get SA (for the first attack only) If your buddy is grappling a baddie, you can walk up and SA the baddie. There are others...

when the rogue stabs a guy in the back is that a flank attack?
No. Flanking means you have two *melee* fighters on opposite sides of an opponent. If the rogue is one of these, then any attacks will add SA damage. There is no 'stabbing in the back' (Now, I will allow a rogue to sneak up on a guard, and get SA due to surprise, but that is not just because he is behind the guard.)

If your saying you can never flank with a bow then how do you get to back stab, while opponent is in combat?
There is no back stab, it is Sneak Attack. And you can sneak attack with a bow if you have surprise, or win initiative for the first round. Or if something happens that denies the opponent their dex bonus.

Ther eis even a picture of the rogue in the players hand book sneak attacking with a bow, if by definition you cannot flank then how do you sneak attack?
Yep, but she had surprise. By the second round, she would no longer be getting sneak attack damage

I believe that if an opponent is flanked you can also get a sneak attack on them, like if they are surronded by a fighter with a sword on both sides, you can sneak attack the opponent that is flanked.
This does not work. The opponent is not flanked, the two fighters are flanking. The rogue needs to be flanking to get the SA damage.

To answer your question look at the feat far shot, it is 1.5x all range increments.
Yes, but the range increment for a dagger is 10', for a bow 100'. These are range increments. the PBS feat says nothing about range increments. It just gives a straight 30'. Now, if it said it worked out to one range increment....but it doesn't. I understand your confusion, but far shot does not affect PBS. Also, Sneak Attack has nothing to do with PBS, and Far shot has even less effect on Sneak attack range.

So maybe our group house rules them to make them more effective? But honestly we all (our entire gaming group, and other gaming groups) all give a 45' piont blank for any one with far shot.
Rogues are far from ineffective in combat, even with the rules as written. They are not as good as the fighters, but they aren't supposed to be. They are supposed to have to work to get their kick ass damage, or else they will easily be better than fighters.
That said, if the only change is to have Far shot extend PBS to 45', I doubt that will disrupt the game too much. Allowing it to extend the Sneak Attack range to 45' will be more disuptive, but not all that much. Ranged sneak attacks are still pretty limited.

If enemy is in combat with someone and he attempts to defend himself vs. an incoming arrow he earns an AoO. This is done out of logic, if in combat and he concentrated on deflecting an arrow or tries to move to avoid then the guy fighting him will more often than not get a free go at him for not paying attention.
Okay, this is just ridiculous. Enemy is against Fighter A. When Archerboy shoots the Enemy, you are saying this gives the fighter an AoO? The archer shoots 3 arrows, assuming combat reflexes, that means the fighter gets 3 extra attacks each round. Heck, by your logic, the archer doesn't even need to hit. So bring on those lvl 1 archers... they will easily double by fighters damage output.
Now lets say Enemy is in combat against Fighter A and Fighter B. Fighter B swings at Enemy. Does Fighter A get an AoO? If not, why is it more 'distracting' to try and avoid one arrow than to try and avoid another fighter for a full 6 seconds?
Besides, if you want to bring in logic, much of the combat falls apart. Even moreso when you only bring in 'logic' for one aspect.

If in combat and the rogue is behind or to the side of enemy he will get a flank/sneak attack with a melee, projectile or thrown weapon attack
This is totally a house rule. This is not supported by the rules unless the rogue has suprise, or is invisible. At which point, the rogue could be in front also. The danger with this 'logic' is that miniatures are NOT as fluid as real combat. So it is trivially easy to get 'behind' bad guys on the board, whereas it should not be so 'logically'


I suppose were trying to help the rogue out. Otherwise his combat input would be of very little importance
This is very much not true. The rogue, as written, can still do a bunch of damage and contribute quite a bit. Just ask around. Heck my rogue often out damages the fighters, and that is with rules as written. It takes a bit more tactics, and sometimes you are not as effective as you want, but that is true for all classes.


Anyway, I hope this helped you get answers to your questions. You can, of course, change any rules you want. But that does make it harder to ask questions here, since you are playing a different game than the rest of us. (Not a slam, just a realism_

My personal unasked for advice: You and your group seem to not have a great grasp on the rules. I would recommend playing with fewer books and fewer alternate rules until you get a better feel for the game. That will make it easier to know which rules you don't want to use, and which ones you want to change. And more importantly, it will give you a better feel for what impact each house rule may have on your game.

OTOH, if you are having fun....keep going.

.

 

[Coredump]

Hmmmm... I was trying to give a full answer. Didn't mean to kill the thread...