Sorcerer Build Up

Mistwell said:

You could say the same about Clerics, and yet they are widely considered the most powerful class in the game. I think sorceror's are a pretty good class. I agree with you that a PRC is useful, but then I cannot think of a class where a PRC would NOT be useful other than perhaps druid.

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Not so. Clerics get to improve their turn undead ability as they level up, and that is a genuinly useful ability. The turning ability of a 20th level cleric is way more significant than the turning ability of a 1st level cleric. Almost all cleric PRC's with full spell casting progression have to give that up, Radiant Servant of Pelor being the obvious exception. Every cleric that can take Radian Servant levels instead of cleric levels should do so, if they are concerned first and foremost with power. They gains only benefits by doing so and loses nothing, full spellcasting, full turn (+ better) + extra abilities all the way up.

Familiars in comparison are lame they are in fact are far too vulnerable to be used effectivly, they are a hinderance and not a benefit as you have to protect them. Occasionally they can prove useful, but only occasionally. IMO sacrifiing familiar abililty for anything else is a win win situation. You cannot generally afford to expose your familiar to danger as it only has 1/2 your hit points, and if it is away from you doesn't get any of those nice defensive spells you were buffed with.

Veril said:

Not so. Clerics get to improve their turn undead ability as they level up, and that is a genuinly useful ability. The turning ability of a 20th level cleric is way more significant than the turning ability of a 1st level cleric.

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Sorcerors improve their familiar, and that too is a genuinely useful ability. The abilities granted by a 20th level sorceror's familar are way more significant than the abilities granted by a 1st level sorceror.

Almost all cleric PRC's with full spell casting progression have to give that up, Radiant Servant of Pelor being the obvious exception.

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Same could be said of sorceror PRC's and familiars.

Every cleric that can take Radiant Servant levels instead of cleric levels should do so, if they are concerned first and foremost with power. They gains only benefits by doing so and loses nothing, full spellcasting, full turn (+ better) + extra abilities all the way up.

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I disagree, but that isn't the debate we are having in this thread.

Familiars in comparison are lame they are in fact are far too vulnerable to be used effectivly, they are a hinderance and not a benefit as you have to protect them. [Occasionally they can prove useful, but only occasionally. IMO sacrifiing familiar abililty for anything else is a win win situation. You cannot generally afford to expose your familiar to danger as it only has 1/2 your hit points, and if it is away from you doesn't get any of those nice defensive spells you were buffed with.

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False. I strongly suspect you've never actually played a high level sorceror with a familiar. There are so many feats and spells and other stuff that can alter a familar that it's simply astonishing that you have not come to realize just how powerful a familiar can be for a high level sorceror. In fact, a large portion of the min/max threads regarding sorceror's are directly about their familiar. Huge sections of some of the new books also deal with the familiars....

really how sow mistwell........im never really looked into familiars......

Nail said:

Umm....?????

Break off statue's head, turn statue back to flesh?

What's the problem?

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Same level of spell, and he only gets to know one spell of that level at that character level?

yea we start tomorrow.......the campaign

Seph said:

really how sow mistwell........im never really looked into familiars......

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Start with this thread:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=193357

Also...from the user PhaedrusXY:

Improved Familiar (to get an Outsider), and then Polymorph it into something nastier. It counts as having your hit dice, so you can polymorph it into forms with up to your hit dice, and you can cast spells on it which are normally only personal.

Even if you don't get an Outsider, there are quite a few really nasty forms available for Polymorphing your familar into. Check the Polymorph thread. The Hydras are good as far as attacks go.

From the user X-Codes:

Arcane Heirophant [Races of the Wild] (gives some familiar bonuses to an animal companion)
Improved Familiar [too many books to list here] (makes just about anything a potential familiar)
Bonded Summoner [Miniatures Handbook] (changes familiar into an elder elemental at the cost of some spellcasting)
Alienist [Complete Arcane] (gives familiar the Pseudonatural template)
Demonologist [Book of Vile Darkness] (changes familiar to a Quasait)
Diabolist [Book of Vile Darkness] (changes familiar to an Imp)
Stitched Flesh Familiar [Libris Mortis] (applies undead qualities to familiar)

From the user Terraneaux:

The feat Obtain Familiar from Complete Arcane lets you gain a familiar appropriate for your CL regardless of all the prestiging you've done. You can share spells with it and turn it into whatever you want via shapechange or draconic polymorph. Share a tenser's and a shapechange with it and watch it go wild.

I know I've seen more than just what I've listed here, but it should provide at least a taste of what I was talking about. Familiars can be a pretty potent addition to your power level.

One wizard level, the rest sorcerer. Knowledge (arcane) and Spellcraft are nasty combinations.

From user Zathyr:

Celestial Familiar feat from BoED allows you to apply the celestial template to a standard familiar or aquire certain celestial creatures as a familiar. As easy ways to get an outsider as a familiar goes, it's up there.

From user Aramas:

Dragon Familiar from the Draconomicon allows you to have a wyrmling as a familiar.

Why would anyone ever take one level of Wizard and all the rest Sorcerer? Same as one level Sorc and all the rest Wizard. D&D rewards focus. Getting higher-level spells faster is better than whatever the other class would have bought you.

Sorcerers have Kn(Arcana) and Spellcraft as class skills. How would a level of Wizard help?

Anyway. Sorcerer is a fine class. It starts slowly but is playable with the right Feats (specifically, Draconic Feats).

I'll show you how I'd build a Sorcerer, with an eye to utility & flexibility. Let's assume 25 point buy and just Core stuff plus Complete Arcane, so your actual build will probably be stronger:

Human Sorc
Str: 8, Dex: 13, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 15
1: Sorc 1 -- Draconic Heritage (Gold), Draconic Breath -- Silent Image, Charm Person
2: Sorc 2
3: Sorc 3 -- Draconic Flight -- Shield
4: Sorc 4 -- Cha +1 -- Glitterdust
5: Sorc 5 -- Mage Armor, Alter Self
6: Sorc 6 -- Draconic Power -- Haste
7: Sorc 7 -- Magic Missile, Hideous Laughter, Suggestion
8: Sorc 8 -- Cha +1 -- Black Tentacles
9: Fatespinner 1 -- Draconic Legacy (Bless, Daylight, Dispel Evil) -- False Life, Slow, Resilient Sphere
10: Fatespinner 2 -- Wall of Force
11: Fatespinner 3 -- Mirror Image, Magic Circle vs. Evil, Unluck, Sending
12: Fatespinner 4 -- Cha +1 -- Spell Focus (Enchantment) -- Planar Binding
13: Argent Savant 1
14: Argent Savant 2 -- Scrying, Teleport, Greater Dispelling
15: Argent Savant 3 -- Spell Focus (Conjuration) -- Limited Wish
16: Argent Savant 4 -- Cha +1 -- Break Enchantment, Analyze Dweomer, Plane Shift
17: Argent Savant 5 -- Polymorph Any Object
18: Mindbender 1 -- Skill Focus (Spellcraft) -- Greater Arcane Sight, Mind Blank
19: Archmage 1 -- Shapechange
20: Archmage 2 -- Cha +1 -- Greater Planar Binding, Wish

Toss in a level of Wayfarer Guide if you want to spend skill points on Kn(Geography) -- only Argent Savant gets that as a class skill, but it's a nifty PrC if you take only one level.

Keys to the build:
- Put 5 ranks in Prof(Gambler) immediately. It's a class skill for Sorcs, and you need it for Fatespinner.
- Take 4 ranks in each of Bluff (easy), Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Intimidate (all cross-class), before you can take Mindbender. Telepathy 100 ft. is well worth the skill points.
- You have no free Feats. You must take Spell Focus twice by the end, so maybe it would be better to choose more spells with saves.
- Now personally, I like the Gold Dragon Legacy spells. However, there are some more strictly combat oriented Legacy types. Blue, Green, Copper and Red are also excellent -- note that you do NOT have to be evil to take Blue, Green, or Red, nor do you need to be LG to take Gold. It's just a flavor thing.
- You have hardly any direct-damage spells. This is on purpose. Basically you're supposed to use your breath weapon or Magic Missile until you get Arcane Fire (via Archmage). The rest of the time you buff the party, or take opponents out of the fight using effects like Suggestion, Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, etc.
- Likewise, no Fly spell. At early levels, you can get around this with Draconic Flight. Later, use Polymorph, Poly Any Object and Shapechange.
- You have a large variety of special abilities. Be sure you know them. You're very flexible -- the opposite of a one-trick pony.

-- N

Why take Draconic Power and NOT take any energy spells that can benefit from it?