D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

I have the urge to start a modern-day style campaign, but I'm not familiar with either D20 Modern or Spycraft. I'm looking for advice on which of these systems would better fit my game table. I'm open to suggestions of other systems to model modern day as well.

What I'm looking for: I want to test the waters for my campaign by running something sort of mundane. Present day weapons and technology, and heroic but not superpowered humans. If the campaign takes off, I may add some Dark*Matter or Delta Green type elements, but for the start I'm trying to keep it vanilla. The movie "Heat" is an example of the type of setting I'm looking to model.

I might try to use the system to replace the Mechwarrior rules to run a Battletech RPG at some point, so if the system can be easily slotted into that role it would be a bonus for me.

I don't mind a sytem that has magic or supernatural elements in it, as long as they can be easily sidestepped until I'm ready to make them part of my campaign.

I welcome everyone's experience on this. I don't have a big budget for games, so I need to make this shot count.

Lhorgrim said:

I have the urge to start a modern-day style campaign, but I'm not familiar with either D20 Modern or Spycraft. I'm looking for advice on which of these systems would better fit my game table. I'm open to suggestions of other systems to model modern day as well.

What I'm looking for: I want to test the waters for my campaign by running something sort of mundane. Present day weapons and technology, and heroic but not superpowered humans. If the campaign takes off, I may add some Dark*Matter or Delta Green type elements, but for the start I'm trying to keep it vanilla. The movie "Heat" is an example of the type of setting I'm looking to model.

I might try to use the system to replace the Mechwarrior rules to run a Battletech RPG at some point, so if the system can be easily slotted into that role it would be a bonus for me.

I don't mind a sytem that has magic or supernatural elements in it, as long as they can be easily sidestepped until I'm ready to make them part of my campaign.

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Modern doesn't include magic "by default". All three official campaign settings have it, but most Modern GMs simply create their own campaign setting (which is very often a non-FX setting similar to real life or what is in a movie).

I have D20 Modern and Spycraft I, and run D20 Modern. I've only seen SC 2.0 in stores, though I may get it at some point. I prefer D20 Modern's class system a lot, and it has more consistent gun damage rules. Spycraft does some things better than D20 Modern - it has much better vehicular rules, for instance, and has rules for cover fire.

Lhorgrim said:

but I'm not familiar with either D20 Modern

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You can get the MSRD for free to see what the d20 Modern rules look like. This is the OGC version though, so not all the material in d20 Modern, d20 Future, Urban Arcana and Menace Manual will be there.

I enjoyed running Spycraft more than d20 modern, but I have yet to know of anyone else who picked up Spycraft 2.0

I think the feats are outstanding in the updated version.

I've got both and still consistently use d20Modern. I'll mine Spycraft2.0 for a rule now and then, but usually not a rule I'll use all of the time.

And there are alot of rules in there. Damage isn't damage ... there's Ballistic damage and Collision damage and Laser damage ... and Fire damage ... and Acid damage. They're not just different types, but have different rules. Some things are more complex, such as sliding Initiative counts and various feats and maneuvers that change that count.

Two biggest issues I have with it are tone and classes, which are often the same thing. SC2 is a SUPERspies game, in the tradition of James Bond. And it plays like that. 1st level characters start "the best in their field". Hackers only fail hacking tasks if they're in-turn hacked by a better hacker. Everybody starts at 1st level like they're supermen and the only thing that changes as the campaign progresses, like a movie, is there are bigger explosions and more bodies the higher you go. The bad-guys stats are based off of the level of the PCs and the GM's role is scripted in how far he should deviate. Biff Steele is the best agent the Agency has, and this episode he takes out Dr. Yes and four henchmutants. Next week, Biff Steele is the best agent the Agency has and he takes out the entire governing body of D.R.A.G.O.N., for whom world-threatening Dr. Yes was but a minor flunky, and fifteen henchmutants. Week after, Biff Steele is the best agent the Agency has, and we find out the D.R.A.G.O.N. was only a pawn of the even-more-powerful-yet-hereunto-unheard-of D.E.V.I.L. and their THIRTY henchmutants. Etc.

The classes are Archetypal. Wheelman, Soldier, Face, Hacker, Guide, etc. Each is pretty flavorful, but I don't care much for Archetypal classes.

Some people don't like d20Modern's classes for the opposite reason ... they're ... controversial. Each is based off of one of the six stats, and sort of focuses on what that stat does. A character doesn't have to have a high stat in the class to take it, but it usually helps (and sometimes actually bolsters a low stat) They don't overly guide you to a character concept, though. If you're playing a "Wheelman" you know you're playing a wheelman, a driver, the guy that drives, and you're going to have only abilities that make you more adept at driving. In d20Modern I've seen the same character concept built three ways with three different classes. And I've seen three characters with the same class have three entirely different concepts. A d20Modern "Wheelman" just takes a few appropriate feats and ranks in Drive. It might be easiest and most effective to go at it via the Fast class, but I could make a go with it as Tough, too. I find d20Modern to be more flexible, but that can mean it is harder for players to get into, too.

--fje

Thanks for the responses.

I'm leaning toward D20 Modern based on what I've been able to find out about the systems. It seems to fit my campaign ideas pretty well, and the Future supplements are available if I want to do the Battletech RPG campaign.

I won't be placing an order until payday next week, so if anyone has any other words of wisdom I would be more than happy to hear them.

Spycraft 2.0 is a much better rules system for generic modern action. I'll take issue with HT's qualifications of it. Were he speaking of SC 1st, I think saying its focussed on superspies is fair. But SC 2.0 has a built in system and guidelines for tweaking the tone of your action and characters, and the classes are much more "pick and choose." Spycraft 2.0 is a great engine for most modern action and espionage. James Bond, Alias, Sneakers, the Agency, 24, MI, Lara Croft, Jack Ryan, Blade Runner, Navy Seals, are all things I would happily run with SC 2.0.

But d20 modern has some great support and some people who have done some neat stuff for it.

I'd say unless you have your eyes on a specific third party product for d20 modern, use Spycraft 2.0. But if you do (frex, d20 future tech and various third party product provide lots of mecha support... if you want to do battletech), you might want to go that route.

I'm also fond of Blood & Fists by RPGObjects. If you have a taste for martial arts, check it out!

Psion said:

Spycraft 2.0 is a much better rules system for generic modern action.

But d20 modern has some great support and some people who have done some neat stuff for it.

I'd say unless you have your eyes on a specific third party product for d20 modern, use Spycraft 2.0. But if you do (frex, d20 future tech and various third party product provide lots of mecha support... if you want to do battletech, you might want to go that route.)

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Couldn't agree more. Spycraft 2.o is a much more generic "modern Action Genre" game that 1E was, and it has been expanded and clarified and--hell, I'll say it--improved in every way imaginable in this edition.

I totally love it.

Psion said:

Spycraft 2.0 is a much better rules system for generic modern action. I'll take issue with HT's qualifications of it.

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I will say there's a portion at the back of the book for "tweaking" the game to do different genres. From Western to Horror. There's various "settings" that they talk about.

But it just didn't "catch" me. Which is odd, I like tweaking settings.

I could be something as simple as Archetypal classes vs. Basic classes.

Or WP/VP vs. HP.

The tone was just off. I tried doing a few things with it, like a western, but I couldn't shake the superspies thing. A Wheelman on a horse is still a Wheelman, even if he can get "more shot" or can't pick up a Bag Full Of Guns on his way out the door. It didn't feel "Westerny".

I aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalmost ran a Dark*Matter game with it. They both have, y'know, agents and stuff. Seemed like a pretty good fit. But in the end we did d20Modern because I was the only one who had the SC2.0 book and the others were grumpy about learning a new system.

--fje

I would go with Spycraft 2.0. The original SC was a really great ruleset, but focused too much on Mission Impossible (the show) style espionage. But they pulled back the focus a lot and streamlined the rules for 2.0 and it works extremely well for most action genres.

The only real downside to it is that its base classes aren't nearly as flexible as d20 Modern. Basically you can do anyone in d20 Modern (though I would argue not well - most characters tend to be somewhat incompetent, though since almost everyone is, it evens out), while in SC2.0, there's only 12 core classes, and if you can't find one that suits the archetype, you are out of luck. Most action orientated archetypes are covered pretty well, but there is a definite gap.

I was hoping 3rd party products would fill this gap, but there really hasn't been anything, 3rd party or 1st party (though that's supposed to change in the future).

OTOH, d20 Modern does have quite a lot of good stuff from 3rd parties (it's the 1st party stuff for it that is often lacking, like d20 Future)