D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

[Lhorgrim]

It sounds like this is going to be a tough call.

Both systems seem to be able to do what I want. I wish I could playtest both systems to get the feel for them. I don't know anyone in my area that plays either.

I played Alternity in the Star*Drive setting back in the day. I liked that system, but WotC dropped it just as I started to play. I assume Modern has some similarities to Alternity. What about Spycraft? I'm checking out the Modern SRD, and that's giving me a feel for the rules at least.

Spycraft used to have a "Lite" version of the rules for download, but I never picked them up. Is there anything like that for 2.0? The current webpage directs to a "Crafty Games" page that is isn't active yet.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I have both, and find Spycraft 2.0 to be vastly superior.

It is not an espionage game so much as an action game, able to handle Indiana Jones as well as James Bond. Chases and other dramatic tasks are a blast to run, I have only seen players enjoy a chase as much with Hot Pursuit, and that has a lot of points in common with SC.

Combat is actually fun, which is not usually the case for me. Fluid and active, with a large amount of shouting back and forth between the players (in a good way). Lethality can be easily modified by the GM.

It has made gaming fun for me. I cannot help but feel that it is the game that Modern should have been but was not. This week I started a game based on the old computer game XCom using the Spycraft rules - with the intention of changing campaign qualities and game focus week after next. (It is starting off as an espionage game, then switches to a military game once the enemy is known.)

The Auld Grump

 

[Vigilance]

I'd go with d20 Modern myself. Spycraft has a lot of strengths. A LOT of them. I have nothing but respect for the design.

But, I think d20 Modern is more flexible. If you want one book that will let you run anything, from special ops to Buffy.

A lot of people complain about d20 Modern having less flavor, but it is infinitely flexible and moddable, in ways that most who read the rules frankly miss.

Chuck

 

[Committed Hero]

Spycraft works best when the party gets its equipment and missions from some kind of superior; particularly a group with special resources and experts. If the PCs sort of find their way together, d20 Modern is easier to use. Actually, d20 is probably "easier" to use in most senses since Spycraft is far more detailed.

The tricky thing about SC's Campaign Qualities is that a GM can't be completely confident that they will help a campaign until she knows how the default rules work and which combination will get the results she is looking for.

 

[Morgenstern]

If you've got some time to browse, you might find the previews for Spycraft 2.0 helpful.

http://www.spycraftrpg.com/rpg/spycraft2/index.html

 

[TheAuldGrump]

You know, an odd thing just occurred to me, Spycraft 2.0 is the only D20 based game that I have felt tempted to do a story hour for. And that most of the scenes that I remember best involved players spending and getting scads of Action Dice.

Action Dice in Spycraft 2.0 are handled in a very different way than in D20 Modern, they are more useful, and you get a lot more of them. My current Steampunk-Spycraft game was originally run using OGL Steampunk, much closer to D20 Modern than Spycraft 2.0, especially in regards to combat, chases, and the Action Dice mechanics.

Under Spycraft players have been a lot more willing to try stuff that is risky, difficult, or just plain dangerous, mostly because of the mechanics for Action Dice in the game. My games have gotten a lot noisier than they were under OGL Steampunk, or than in my current Iron Kingdoms game, so I guess my players like the Spycraft rules. I am vaguely surprised to find that I like running action games, since my taste in fiction runs towards the more cerebral. Odd. :\

So I guess the real question is: What do you want your game to feel like? If you want lots of over the top action then you may prefer Spycraft 2.0, if ytou want things to be a bit more predictable when running the game, and want built in rules for magic then you may prefer D20 Modern.

The Auld Grump

 

[Kanegrundar]

Here's another vote for D20 Modern.

While I really do enjoy Spycraft V2, it just didn't give me everything I wanted for my modern gaming. D20 Modern is a lot more flexible to molding into whatever you want. I do use Spycraft V2 for vehicle rules, autofire, and cover fire, but unless you're wanting to run high-octane action D20 Modern has all the tools needed to run anything else.

 

[Aussiegamer]

If you want to think out side the box of d20M or Spycraft then give Nexus a look.

The combat system is still easy to run and the PCs get to do more in the combat than just move and hit. Their actions some what have an impact on the initiative order, they get to aim or rush an attack as well as the normal type attack.

It has magic, psionics, cybernetics, mutants and much more.

It is a bit more complex in the setting up of the campaign world, but once the basics are in place then it flows as easy as D&D or d20M does.

It is a different system thus only some parts will fit from other systems, but it is pretty easy to swap them over.

The system allows you to build pretty much waht ever you like, and as such it tends to fit the system. Unlike some systems which force you to guess the cost and DC and other factors based on the supplied materials.

Currently I am converting D&D3.5 stuff into the rule set, like shields and cash.

So it is still in development a bit, but the basics like the combat and PC generation are pretty much done.

Hope you think outside the box and take a look.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I own and like both.

IMHO, though, its marginally easier to port things from other WotC products into D20 Modern than Spycraft 2.0. IME, you may also find it easier to find players for Modern than Spycraft- many of my gaming buddies don't touch any non WotC D20-style products. As always, YMMV.

If you've got plans for doing a lot of material conversions or your players are WotC-snobs, D20 Modern is the clear choice.

Otherwise, its a toss-up.

 

[RangerWickett]

Grim Tales

I don't own SC (1 or 2), but I've been running a D20 Modern campaign for nearly a year (I even wrote Mythic Earth, a variant magic system for D20 Modern, just so I could use it in my game), and there are enough failings that I can't recommend it.

Vehicle rules for d20 Modern are lame, and though 'Hot Pursuit' (a product available through Adamant, I believe) apparently improves on this, I haven't had a chance to try it out since I bought it.

Guns in d20 Modern don't seem good enough. The way the classes are set up, if you want to be a good shot with a gun, you either take the Strong class to get good base attack bonus but receive worthless strength-based talents, or you take the Fast class to get good AC and some arguably useful dodging abilities but a medium base attack bonus. In the game I run, the PC who uses a sword deals more damage with fewer feats spent than the gun wielder does. Range vs. melee is a balancing factor, but it just galls our gunslinger that he will pretty much never deal more than 3d6 with his pistols, while the swordsman can Power Attack and Melee Smash and add his Strength mod and deal d8+14.

The non-combat abilities of the classes are pretty weak. The Charismatic hero has an ability to inspire his allies, but until you're high-level it won't work on the entire party, since you can only get 1 or 2 people. Several classes have abilities that require checks to use which you will often fail, causing you to waste an action during combat, which is just not fun. It's balanced, I suppose, but it's not fun.

The system really could've used VP/WP. Normally there's no way for an 8th level hero to do stuff two days in a row. Day 1 he starts with 40 hit points, takes 30 damage, and then spends the next three days resting to get back HP. That's not how action movies work. In an action movie, if it doesn't kill you, you get over it within an hour. Less if you're Tom Cruise.

D20 Modern's magic system (which is pretty much just D&D Magic only you can't cast spells before 4th level) doesn't feel right for a lot of game styles. It actually kinda works for a Cyberpunk-esque modern grunge fantasy, but if you want anything mystical, mysterious, or mythic (my, my, my, what wonderful alliteration I've invented), fireballs and their ilk don't cut it.


I don't know about Spycraft, but Grim Tales fixes at least a few of those issues. Grim Tales, by Bad-Axe Games. I recommend it.