D20 Modern or Spycraft II?

[Committed Hero]

In the game I run, the PC who uses a sword deals more damage with fewer feats spent than the gun wielder does. Range vs. melee is a balancing factor, but it just galls our gunslinger that he will pretty much never deal more than 3d6 with his pistols, while the swordsman can Power Attack and Melee Smash and add his Strength mod and deal d8+14.

Sounds like quite a few action movies I've seen.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

If you are looking for easy to run because you and your players know D&D -- then you can learn d20 Modern very quickly. However, it has several weaknesses which have already been outlined by others (especially Ranger Wicket). I will say, like the good Ranger, I can recommend Grim Tales, which solves most of the weaknesses of d20 Modern and yet is the same basic rule set so also easy to use and easy to learn if you are already familiar with d20.

Spycraft 2.0 is great. (I haven't played it yet, so take this with a grain of salt.) Everything about it, really, is great and it would not be difficult at all to use it to create whatever kind of game you want. However, there are a lot of rules, and a lot of options, and it requires some careful reading and it is a large book, rather expensive, which few have. So, for ease of starting a new game... well, if that is what your main concern is then I go back to Grim Tales. But Spycraft 2.0 is well thought out and is a fun set of rules.

Plus, Grim Tales does have a SRD available for character creation -- which is nice if you are getting the rulebook but your players are not.

http://www.carcere.net/~kirintor/index.php?x=gtsrd/index

d20 Modern has an easy-to-use online SRD, as well:

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/modern/roarerbull/Home.php

 

[Henry]

It's tough to say, other than to tell you my perceptions of "default" styles in the respective games.

If you want modern action along the lines of the movies Se7en or a James patterson Alex Cross book/movie, then Grim Tales is a good fit.

If you want modern Action along the lines of a traditional "Buddy Cop" movie, or maybe the old show Special Unit 2, then d20 Modern is a better fit.

If you want modern action along the lines of Rush Hour, Shanghai Knights, or a James Bond Film, then Spycraft 2.0 is a good system to use.

My biggest problem with Spycraft 2 is one of its strengths - the classes are very groomed for a modern Spec Ops Game, where every character is a high-end professional of some sort, even the first level dudes aren't chumps, even if weaker than 10th level ones. Unfortunately, it doesn't level room for a wider variety of characters, as the Modern /Grim Tales Classes seem to do. Spycraft's feats are such beautifully crafter, over-the-top affairs encouraging from combat-coolness and Role-play mechanical reinforcement, that I can't say anything bad about them.

My second-biggest problem are the expanded conditions. While definitely well-thought out, a DM can drown in them. tradtional D&D may have things like prone, nauseated, dazed, shaken, frightened, panicked, etc.? Well, Spycraft has vulnerable, sprawled, about four different types each of shaken, frightened, etc. in addition to all the usual d20 conditions. Fire damage has a PAGE and A HALF on its effects on characters, places, etc. While cool that it's all spelled out, it's a monster amount of new material to absorb, and all of it has bearing on most combats run. That's a little TOO precise for my tastes.

Final analysis - as an excellently crafted game, it astounds, and as a toolbox for other d20 games, it doesn't disappoint. But the learning curve for me was unbelieveably steep.

 

[C. Baize]

I haven't played Spycraft or Spycraft 2.0, but we've been playing and running D20 Modern since it first came out.
Actually... we don't even do fantasy anymore... we've gone completely D20 Modern. You can really run anything modern you want with it.
Buffy: The Vampire Slayer? Done.
Starsky and Hutch? Done.
X-Files? Done.
Blade? Done.
The Punisher? Done.
The A-Team? Done.
Zombie Apocalypse? Done.
D&D in the modern world? Done.

I'm running a Stargate SG-1 (well... SG-15, actually) game. I'm running a Zombie Apocalypse game. I'm running a D20 Future game that steals from just about EVERYthing from D&D, to Stargate, to Star Wars, to Starcraft, to Aliens, to Predator, to Starship Troopers, to Wing Commander, to Starflight ][.... etc... etc... etc... I'm running a supers game (using a 3rd party product, Blood and Vigilance).
I'm playing in a Paranoia / Buffy the Vampire Slayer / Blade game (based on which, my wife wrote Modern Backdrops).
The only real limit to it is in your imagination.
If it's flexibility you're looking for... D20 Modern has it in spades.

 

[Yellow Sign]

But the learning curve for me was unbelieveably steep.

I really want to love Spycraft 2.0 too. But it intimidates the heck out of me.

 

[Dragonhelm]

Pardon me for the tangent here, but if a person was to try to run a Shadowrun-style game using either d20 Modern or Spycraft 2.0, which system would work best?

I'd sorta lean towards d20 Modern, since OGL Cybernet is based largely on d20 Modern and d20 Modern also has Urban Arcana to work with. Question is, would Spycraft work a little better for the base classes and such? I find that I prefer an archetype system.

Thanks in advance.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Range vs. melee is a balancing factor, but it just galls our gunslinger that he will pretty much never deal more than 3d6 with his pistols, while the swordsman can Power Attack and Melee Smash and add his Strength mod and deal d8+14.

Though I will note from personal experience that the melee guy really really really doesn't want to wear any sort of armor that will slow his base movement even 5 feet. And doesn't want to face a Fast hero with Extra Speed.

Either of those situations and someplace other than a 50'x50' empty box to play in, and it becomes frustrating for the swordsman.

I had a bad-guy just leading a PC a merry chase. He could move and double-tap ... the PC had to charge to catch up, but the NPC moved around a corner or the like with every move. The PC would make a double move and try to get ahead, but the NPC would just make a double move as well and put them into the same situation. I think it eventually came down to grappling, and then why bring the sword?

Not that I don't like Grim Tales, mind you. GT is a mixture of D20Modern, a few things from D&D, and some stuff from Spycraft 1.0. I would like to see a GT2 that arranges a few things differently and steals from Spycraft2.0.

The all-time perfect game EVAR would be a heady mixture of d20Modern (especially Base Classes and Occupations) with some of the gems from SC2.0 (chases, dramatic scenes, a better Campaign Qualities section, NPC rules) with Grim Tales.

As for VP/WP, it's "okay" but I personally think it's just taking problems and shifting them up and to the left.

The 8th level character with 40hp who lost 30 could also get patched up by Doc at the end of combat (+1d4, av. 2.5), get worked on by Doc that afternoon (Surgery +8d6, av. 28) and rest that night (8hp) and pretty much always be good to go the next morning. It's a toss-up. VP/WP you get all of your "juice" back in a few hours, but crits are a bigger problem, in a less-fun way, for PCs. Especially once you get out of the pistols and get into the 3d8/3d10 stuff. It's mainly a personal preference thing, I think. My old group hated VP/WP after a very short period of time, my new group swears by it.

I will agree that the Charismatic hero's abilities are a little too limited in the number of people they can work on at one time. It usually takes until 6th-8th level before he can hit everybody on the team up, and I'm usually winding down games at 12th-14th level (starting at 3rd-4th).

Note that d20Modern's characters are rather unskilled until about 4th level. IIRC, that was a design decision of some sort, allowing for characters right out of high school at 1st level. I like to start at least 2nd. Spycraft starts out at "the best of the best of the best, sir!" at 1st, with more HP (VP) standard and class abilities that slot right in to being a great Soldier, Investigator, Wheelman, etc.

--fje

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

D20 Modern could use some new feats when it comes to firearms. I've been working on new pistol and shotgun feats here: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=D20_Modern_Feats

Things get worse for melee artists when you use slopes. You go up a slope at half speed, effectively cutting your charge range in half and giving the enemy twice the chances to shoot you. And then there's the Wild Bill strategy

Heap, I found Fast works quite well for melee artists. You just don't feel right if you're not wearing concealable armor, so of course you want the boost to Defense Plus, increased speed is insane if you mix it with Flying Kick.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Pardon me for the tangent here, but if a person was to try to run a Shadowrun-style game using either d20 Modern or Spycraft 2.0, which system would work best?

I'd sorta lean towards d20 Modern, since OGL Cybernet is based largely on d20 Modern and d20 Modern also has Urban Arcana to work with. Question is, would Spycraft work a little better for the base classes and such? I find that I prefer an archetype system.

Thanks in advance.

If you prefer an archetype system, I guess you answered your question. Spycraft has archetypes, d20Modern doesn't START there, but goes there with Advanced Classes.

I would say you could very much do Shadowrun with SC2.0. You'll have to decide how to balance races and add them in (since characters already are adjusted in ways we think of as "Racial Adjustments" before play in SC, without races), add magic, and add cybernetics.

d20Modern has AdCs for many of the Shadowrun character archetypes, but you have to get there. One product I'd suggest that doesn't CHANGE any rules, but levies some good advice is the Modern Player's Companion I and II from The Game Mechanics. In one or both (been a few weeks) they offer up "plans" for how to build various archetypes with base classes. I.E. "I want a journalist." "Do this ..." etc.

I suggest this because combining d20Future, Urban Arcana, and d20 Cyberscape gives you, I think, everything you need to do the Shadowrun thing. From magic to orcs and trolls (though I'd say replace Shadowrun trolls with bugbears or replace bugbear stats with the word "Troll") to cybernetics.

--fje

 

[Psion]

Pardon me for the tangent here, but if a person was to try to run a Shadowrun-style game using either d20 Modern or Spycraft 2.0, which system would work best?

Which system would work best? Due to things like wonky gun combat and the fact that Spycraft 2.0 has a much better native hacking, infiltration, and vehicle combat/chase systems, I might shy away from d20 modern.

That said, d20 modern has better SUPPORT for such games, in the form of magic, fantasy races, and cybernetics, in various supplements and third part products. That alone is pretty telling, provided you are willing to invest in the support.