Best Archer Build?

Question said:

Holy is better because a LOT of enemies are holy, and your bow is good-aligned, bypassing the DR of most fiends.

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He means evil enemies I think.

At level 12+, almost everyone you really care about is evil, and holy is worth its weight in gold.

It's generally accepted to be one of the default best enchantments.

All that electrical, fire, cold stuff just stinks when the enemy, any enemy, has resistance, which they often do.

Yep my mistake, i meant evil.

If you're allowed to run rampant making magic items (as is the case if you're making an item of continuous arrow mind), what you should do is take two Mage-killer feats, allowing you to ignore the effects of magical concealment and obscuring mist (you see through it normally.) Then make an item of obscuring mist, and snipe away!

While this is no help against things like fireball, enemies will be hard put to melee with you (they won't know exactly which square you're in) or return fire with arrows.

green slime said:

?? But the fighter has even less choices, and is stuck when focused on missile weaponry against a multitude of situations. Even with Greater Weapon Specialisation, (W00t! +4 damage vs a plant!), and greatly restricted in a large number of other situations.

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Can you be more specific? A straight fighter gets enough feats that he can pick up Power Attack and other enhancements for a greatsword, so he can at least switch into an able melee role. What multitude of situations is he unprepared for, how is he greatly restricted, and especially how is a rogue (or fighter/rogue) better in these respects?

--Axe

Pickaxe said:

Can you be more specific? A straight fighter gets enough feats that he can pick up Power Attack and other enhancements for a greatsword, so he can at least switch into an able melee role. What multitude of situations is he unprepared for, how is he greatly restricted, and especially how is a rogue (or fighter/rogue) better in these respects?

--Axe

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Yes. Look at the list of feats for a straight "archer" fighter, slightly modified from above:
Point Blank Shot (Human)
Precise Shot (1)
Rapid Shot (Ftr1)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Greatbow] (Ftr2)
Weapon Focus [Greatbow] (3)
Weapon Specialisation [Greatbow] (Ftr4)
Manyshot (6)
Improved Rapid Shot (Ftr6)
Greater Weapon Focus [Greatbow] (Ftr8)
Far Shot (9)
Improved Initiative (?) (Ftr 10)
Improved Precise Shot (12)
Greater Weapon Specialisation [Greatbow] (Ftr12)

Result is MAB +14/+14/+9/+4 (+Dex) damage d10+4+Str over fantastic range. And basically no skills (30 skill points +15*Int mod), more hp, and worse saves (+8,+4,+4).

Compare to Rgr 2/ Ftr 4/ Rog 6:
====================
Point Blank Shot (Human)
Precise Shot (1)
Track (Rgr1)
Rapid Shot (Rgr2)
Improved Initiative (Ftr1)
?? (Ftr2)
Weapon Focus [Longbow] (3)
Weapon Specialisation [longbow] (Ftr4)
Manyshot (6)
Far Shot(9)
Improved Rapid Shot (12)

Result is MAB +11/+11/+6/+1 (+Dex) damage d8+2(+3d6)+Str over fantastic range. And more skills (86 skill points +15*Int mod), significantly lower hp (but this is a ranged combatant), but better saves (+9, +9, +3). So basically puchasing a conditional ranged PA for a loss to BAB

The fighter is basically unable to take care of non-combat situations at all. Rgr/Ftr/Rog probably has a decent Tumble skill, and a few other skills to help out and about. The fighter's biggest boon vs the Rgr/Ftr/Rog is Improved Precise Shot.

For any of these archer builds, I woud also recommend looking into Weapon Finesse. If you can't afford provoking attack of oppertunity or your enemy disarms/sunders your bow, you don't want to be entirely useless. A dagger, a Shortsword and Spiked Gauntlets might be useful weaponry in such situations.

Greatbow gives an average of +1 damage. Dont use it.

Mustrum_Ridcully said:

For any of these archer builds, I woud also recommend looking into Weapon Finesse. If you can't afford provoking attack of oppertunity or your enemy disarms/sunders your bow, you don't want to be entirely useless. A dagger, a Shortsword and Spiked Gauntlets might be useful weaponry in such situations.

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WF is a terrible feat for anyone but a rogue.

You need relatively high strength (18+) to increase bow damage anyway.

It's not like you are an archer with dex = 22 and str = 10.

When you can't use your bow, grab your sword and do what you can with your 18 strength.

Having posted how bad my archer build was, I had to go back and rework the character.

He's now a much simpler scout/psi warrior/slayer. Better BAB but losing the insane saves of the prior build.

There are some excellent synergies between scout and psi warrior, btw. Perfect Archery, and Hustle are only 2nd level powers, and in the long term inconstant location is perfect for a skirmisher.

green slime said:

Result is MAB +11/+11/+6/+1 (+Dex) damage d8+2(+3d6)+Str over fantastic range. And more skills (86 skill points +15*Int mod), significantly lower hp (but this is a ranged combatant), but better saves (+9, +9, +3). So basically puchasing a conditional ranged PA for a loss to BAB

The fighter is basically unable to take care of non-combat situations at all. Rgr/Ftr/Rog probably has a decent Tumble skill, and a few other skills to help out and about. The fighter's biggest boon vs the Rgr/Ftr/Rog is Improved Precise Shot.

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I just can't justify listing sneak attack damage in a bow entry. The conditions are just too harsh, unless you count on assistance from party spellcasters to deny the enemy its dex every round, or use feats that preclude you from taking full attacks... not to mention having to be within 30'. So, really, the build including rogue is sacrificing hit mod and hp and damage for skills and the ability to very rarely do 2d6 more sneak attack than my build and better saves. Also, don't forget the ability to fire while threatened without provoking AoOs, and the fact that my build has quickdraw which makes it that much easier to switch to melee weapons if needed. As far as combat versatility, I think the rogue is worse. Finishing the builds out to 20 increases the feat disparity to the point where the ftr build could have a whole another chain of feats (mounted combat/Dodge-Mob-SA/PA-Cleave/Combat Reflexes with quickdrawn reach weapon... mix'n'match with glove(s) of storing). I think the rogue can be a very solid, fun, and truly effective character... but I wouldn't call him a top archer, or more (combat) versatile than the fighter (or my fighter heavy build).

Question said:

Greatbow gives an average of +1 damage. Dont use it.

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The Greatbow isn't in the build for more damage, it is there because it is an exotic weapon and allows the EWM PrC and the Close Quarters Ranged Combat class ability.