About initiative

Alpha Polaris · Feb 6, 2007

Take a group of 4 in a dungeon crawl. They see a door, the rogue inspects it (it's clear, but blocked), then hears something moving behind. So after a few buff spells, the fighter kicks the door in. Yes, I know, it's archetypal.

The bad guys inside miraculously failed all checks to hear what happened before (cleric moving in full plate, casting buff spells, rogue inspecting the door and so on), so the DM gives the party a surprise round. But he also adjudicates that since the Fighter just bashed the door, he cannot act in the surprise round.

What's your take on this ?

Thanee · Feb 6, 2007

I would give everyone an action, including the fighter and everyone inside who made their Listen check (none in your example).

Bye
Thanee

shilsen · Feb 6, 2007

Thanee said:
I would give everyone an action, including the fighter and everyone inside who made their Listen check (none in your example).

Bye
Thanee

Same here.

werk · Feb 6, 2007

Likewise.

The fighter bashing in the door happened before initiative and before surprise, he should get to act on surprise too. The condition that allows you to act in the surprise round is being aware of an opponent that isn't aware of you.

"Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round."

cmanos · Feb 6, 2007

did you roll initiative before the door was kicked in?

I would have everyone roll initiative after the door was kicked in. Therefore, the fighter's action of kicking in the door comes before the surprise round, and he would get an action in the surprise round.

SteveC · Feb 6, 2007

I'll chime in and agree with the others here. Give the fighter an action in the surprise round. I think this works from both a rules standpoint and a verisimilitude standpoint. When police and military forces kick in the door, the kicker leads the way.

--Steve

Vegepygmy · Feb 7, 2007

One more vote for not gypping the fighter. He gets to act in the surprise round, too.

airwalkrr · Feb 7, 2007

Alpha Polaris said:
Take a group of 4 in a dungeon crawl. They see a door, the rogue inspects it (it's clear, but blocked), then hears something moving behind. So after a few buff spells, the fighter kicks the door in. Yes, I know, it's archetypal.

The bad guys inside miraculously failed all checks to hear what happened before (cleric moving in full plate, casting buff spells, rogue inspecting the door and so on), so the DM gives the party a surprise round. But he also adjudicates that since the Fighter just bashed the door, he cannot act in the surprise round.

What's your take on this ?

Sounds like you feel like you or someone in your group was wronged by the DM. The rules for granting surprise actions are loosely defined. The essentials note that creatures who are not aware once combat begins may not act in the surprise round. So what it boils down to is that your DM seems to have decided that bashing in the door was the fighter's surprise action. That is reasonable on some levels. If you treat it like a combat round, other characters ready an action to do something once the door is broken down and then the fighter breaks it down. But its not the way I would do it. Actually, if a fighter broke down the door, I would probably just start combat rounds regularly.

Vegepygmy · Feb 7, 2007

airwalkrr said:
The rules for granting surprise actions are loosely defined. The essentials note that creatures who are not aware once combat begins may not act in the surprise round. So what it boils down to is that your DM seems to have decided that bashing in the door was the fighter's surprise action. That is reasonable on some levels.

I don't think the rules for surprise are all that "loosely defined," and the DM's decision is contrary to the example in the DMG (page 23):

Example (Time to Prepare): Jozan the cleric hears the sounds of creatures moving beyond a door in a dungeon. He also hears some voices, and determines that the creatures are speaking Orc. He figures that they don’t know he’s there. He takes the time to cast bless and shield of faith on himself before opening the door and using a standard action to cast hold person on the first foe he sees. He can cast the hold person spell before anyone makes an initiative check, unless the orcs heard him casting bless or shield of faith in the previous 2 rounds, in which case they become aware, Jozan doesn’t get the action that enabled him to cast hold person, and he’d better hope he gets the higher result on his initiative check.

It's quite clear to me from this example that the fighter's action of opening the door (in the OP's scenario) doesn't occur in the surprise round. If it did, Jozan would not have a standard action available to cast hold person on the first foe he sees.

Alpha Polaris · Feb 8, 2007

Thank you, guys, I'll take this thread to the DM, see if he wants to chime in with an opinion of his own, or clarify something I might have missed. I'll rebound on this thread and fast forward a few rounds, since we now have another initiative-related question.

There's a drider and some vermin in the room. The fighter (the one that did not get to act in the surprise round) wins the initiative against the drider, and is able to position himself within melee reach before the aberration's turn. He prepares an action to slice her "as soon as she casts a spell". So does the sorcerer, preparing an infernal howl from the back of the room. Meanwhile, the cleric and rogue clear the room. Now the drider prepares an action to cast "on the fighter's turn". So the fighter loses his action (since the drider did not cast), and just as he's readying the same one for next turn, the drider casts Suggestion on him (luckily failing her Concentration check after being hit by the howl).

Do you think the drider gets to cast, as the fighter takes no visible action on his turn ?

About initiative

Alpha Polaris

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Thanee

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shilsen

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werk

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cmanos

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SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself

Vegepygmy

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airwalkrr

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Vegepygmy

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Alpha Polaris

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