About initiative

[Legildur]

Sounds to me like your DM needs to brush up on his books. (it appears that) The fighter readied an action for when the Drider casts. Did the Drider attempt to cast? Yes. Then the fighter gets their readied action (and they can strike the Drider, with a chance to disrupt the casting, assuming he is within reach).

 

[Alpha Polaris]

Yes, but as you certainly noticed, it's a bit cleverer than this. The fighter readies "strike if she casts", the drider responds by readying "cast on his turn". So it's the fighter's turn again, and he readies "strike if she casts" again, but while he's doing this, her readied action triggers, and she casts while he's not ready (or is he ?).

To sum it up, there are two questions asked here:

• Can a readied action trigger "on the opponent's turn" if the opponent does nothing visible on his/her turn ?
• If the drider can cast while the fighter is readying an action, does she trigger his readied action or not ?

 

[Nareau]

I wouldn't allow an action to be readied "on the opponent's turn". In fact, I wouldn't allow an action to be readied based on any metagame concept. Your character needs to be able to comprehend the conditions that will trigger his action.

Nareau

 

[SlagMortar]

I don't think you can ready "on his turn." The ready condition should be something in character. It doesn't specifically say that, but (rhetorical question) would you allow ready and action to attack when Bob goes to get another bag of cheetos?

 

[Pierson_Lowgal]

When police and military forces kick in the door, the kicker leads the way.

Really? Not on TV, in my humble recollection. I think it makes more sense that the kicker goes in last. Kicking in a door makes one off balance - the laws of physics tell us that the door kicks back. Also, if the "kicker" is holding a battering ram, he/she is in no position to be first through the door.

 

[KarinsDad]

Don't listen to most of these people. They are not following the rules.


If the Fighter kicks in the door BEFORE combat occurs (and before initiatives are rolled), then the creatures inside the room ARE aware of the creatures outside the door and there is no surprise round. By definition. It is only if the Fighter does NOT make the opponents aware of the party that a surprise round occurs. If he makes them aware with a pre-combat action, then by definition, both sides are aware.

SURPRISE

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

If the Fighter opens the door before combat, then the NPCs are aware and no surprise round. It is only if the Fighter opens the door within the surprise round that the party even gets a surprise round.


Hence, your DM did fine. He seems to know this particular rule pretty well.

Surprise round. Roll initiative.

1) Cleric
2) Rogue
3) Fighter
4) Wizard

Cleric delays (or readies), Rogue delays (or readies), Fighter kicks in door, Cleric (or Rogue) goes, Rogue goes, Wizard goes, first round starts.

This is not real life and the first guy in the SWAT team does not necessarily get to be the first guy through the doorway (except possibly for a 5 foot step). This is game rules we are discussing.


The problem here is that some other posters are allowing the PCs to get an action in (kicking in the door) for free which would alert the other side. So, let the players decide. If they want the surprise round, they cannot do anything before the surprise round to alert the NPCs (possibly including casting spells as per the example in the DMG, but also by kicking in a door). If they do not want a surprise round, then open the door and then have everyone (PCs and NPCs) roll for initiative in round one as normal.

Would people allow the PCs to do some other NPC alerting action instead of kicking in a door like casting a Fireball and STILL get to act on the surprise round? If not, why do they allow them a free action of kicking in the door?


Note: In the "open the door pre-combat" scenario, the DM might still have a Wisdom roll (or Listen check or some such) for the NPCs to see if they are able to react and if any of them fail the check, then he could still have a surprise round. However, such a DC should be fairly low (DC 5 to maybe DC 10 max, depending on how alert they are, if some are asleep, obviously the DC should be much higher). It is not so much to hear the door crash open as it is to be alert enough to react to it. In this case, having the Fighter get another action in during the surprise round would be ok, but several of the NPCs might possibly also get an action in during the surprise round because they were alert.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, but as you certainly noticed, it's a bit cleverer than this. The fighter readies "strike if she casts", the drider responds by readying "cast on his turn". So it's the fighter's turn again, and he readies "strike if she casts" again, but while he's doing this, her readied action triggers, and she casts while he's not ready (or is he ?).

To sum it up, there are two questions asked here:

• Can a readied action trigger "on the opponent's turn" if the opponent does nothing visible on his/her turn ?
• If the drider can cast while the fighter is readying an action, does she trigger his readied action or not ?

On this rule, your DM is mistaken. One cannot ready for when an opponent's turn come up. One can only ready on conditions (e.g. the fighter does this, the fighter does that).

If the Fighter readies again, most other conditions that the Drider could set up for its ready action do not occur.


On the other hand, this is an interesting trick. For example, the Drider could ready an action to cast a spell for when the Fighter takes a 5' step (or "when the Fighter moves" would be a better worded, less metagaming condition). If the Fighter takes a 5' step before readying his Readied action to disrupt a spell, the Drider wins. If the Fighter takes a 5' step after readying his action (or never takes a 5' step or moves), the Fighter wins.

But, there are some common conditions that would allow this trick to work to the Drider's advantage sometimes.


However, the DM really screwed this one up and not just for the poorly worded condition for the Readied action. The DM knew what the Fighter's readied action was, but the Drider should not have known and should not have readied in this manner at all.

 

[werk]

I wouldn't allow an action to be readied "on the opponent's turn". In fact, I wouldn't allow an action to be readied based on any metagame concept. Your character needs to be able to comprehend the conditions that will trigger his action.

Nareau

This is my response as well. I'd allow the drider to cast when the fighter 'acts' but 'on his turn' is far to meta for the drider to notice.

 

[Legildur]

So, how did the Drider know what the fighter's initiative roll was?

BTW KD, I really liked your example of using the surprise round to open the door. That makes good sense to me.

 

[Jacen]

Don't listen to most of these people. They are not following the rules.

I have to desagee - partly. Or then I just count you being most of these people.

If the Fighter kicks in the door BEFORE combat occurs (and before initiatives are rolled), then the creatures inside the room ARE aware of the creatures outside the door and there is no surprise round. By definition. It is only if the Fighter does NOT make the opponents aware of the party that a surprise round occurs. If he makes them aware with a pre-combat action, then by definition, both sides are aware.

Hmmm... Vegepygmy pasted something that gave an impression that it was from DMG (page 23).

Example (Time to Prepare): Jozan the cleric hears the sounds of creatures moving beyond a door in a dungeon. He also hears some voices, and determines that the creatures are speaking Orc. He figures that they don’t know he’s there. He takes the time to cast bless and shield of faith on himself before opening the door and using a standard action to cast hold person on the first foe he sees. He can cast the hold person spell before anyone makes an initiative check, unless the orcs heard him casting bless or shield of faith in the previous 2 rounds, in which case they become aware, Jozan doesn’t get the action that enabled him to cast hold person, and he’d better hope he gets the higher result on his initiative check.

So acording to you in that example Jozan started the combat before opening the door -> openign the door standard action, so no casting the spell. Wait a minute - it says that Jozan gets to cast the spell before anyone rolls for the initiative. But he did make the enemies aware of himself by opening the door. So he shouldn't be able to cast the spell, but he does get to cast it. Thus what you are saying is wrong.

If the Fighter opens the door before combat, then the NPCs are aware and no surprise round. It is only if the Fighter opens the door within the surprise round that the party even gets a surprise round.

Jozan did open the door and got surprise round.

The problem here is that some other posters are allowing the PCs to get an action in (kicking in the door) for free which would alert the other side. So, let the players decide. If they want the surprise round, they cannot do anything before the surprise round to alert the NPCs (possibly including casting spells as per the example in the DMG, but also by kicking in a door). If they do not want a surprise round, then open the door and then have everyone (PCs and NPCs) roll for initiative in round one as normal.

Like the example said. Opening the door gives surprise round it the ones otherside doesn't know there are ppl other side coming in. Jozan cast some spells and listen check was called. So IMHO kick the door in and everyone getting inside has a standard action before rolling for the initiative. When the door burst in conbat starts. Who did know about the enemy is the question that says is there surprise round. If monsters inside know that there are adventures outside then no surprise. If breaking the door was first sign then they are "WHAT THE H***..." and are surprised. If Breaking the door fails. Well, that was it. Now they know there are someone outside the door.

Would people allow the PCs to do some other NPC alerting action instead of kicking in a door like casting a Fireball and STILL get to act on the surprise round? If not, why do they allow them a free action of kicking in the door?

Yes I would. with the listening check that does monsters inside hear the casting or blast.