About initiative

[KarinsDad]

So acording to you in that example Jozan started the combat before opening the door -> openign the door standard action, so no casting the spell. Wait a minute - it says that Jozan gets to cast the spell before anyone rolls for the initiative. But he did make the enemies aware of himself by opening the door. So he shouldn't be able to cast the spell, but he does get to cast it. Thus what you are saying is wrong.

No.

What I am saying is correct.

The example is wrong. The rules text takes precedence over the example text in the rules when they disagree. It happens every once in a while in the books. For example, there are several sample characters for PrCs where the sample character could not be created with the rules mentioned on the same or previous page.

And, the example is obviously wrong. It states that he casts two spells in the previous 2 rounds. There are no "rounds" before combat. But given that additional error, yes, in the same time frame, he could cast two spells and open a door. No problem. But, if he opens the door before combat, the enemies get a chance to react. Otherwise every door encounter in the game results in a surprise round for the PCs nearly every time. It is not too hard on the other side of a door to sneak up to it, listen for anything inside, if someone is heard, open the door and cast in free surprise round as long as they did not hear the PCs (which through a door if not actively listening is likely).

Also, if casting a spell before combat starts might take away the opportunity for surprise (as per the example you quoted), so could opening a door. Any non-subtle action can alert the enemies and foil surprise.

And btw, opening a door is a move action, not a standard action. But, that's just a quibble.

 

[pressedcat]

Weighing in a bit late here, and my opinion might not count for much, but i'd tend to agree with Karins Dad. If the fighter wanted to kick the door in before combat began, i'd be giving all the monsters on the other side a spot and listen check (unless for some reason the situation didn't allow these, ie darkness and magical silence). The DC for these checks would be seriously low, probably 5 (or lower) for noticing the door for the room in which your standing being kicked in. If everybody failed to notice that, ok i might allow a surprise round to start at that point, otherwise no surprise round at all.
The DM seems to have allowed the fighter to have kicked the door in as his surprise action before letting the rest of the party flood into the room taking everybody inside by surprise. I consider this an entirely reasonable surprise round. Allowing the fighter to kick in a door providing incredibly low listen/spot checks, followed by a second surprise action as if the door wasn't even part of the equation would be a very generous ruling by the dm.
Going back to tv shows, the swat member kicking in the door (or even just turning the handle) usually steps aside allowing the readied members of the party to rush in.

 

[Jacen]

The example is wrong.

Still it makes perfect sense to me.

And, the example is obviously wrong. It states that he casts two spells in the previous 2 rounds. There are no "rounds" before combat.

And there are no rounds after the combat. So spell that lasts 20 rounds ends after the combat. It wouldn't matter it antoher ones starts in 10 secs after the first one. If you cont the non-existent rounds the spells are still in effect. And round is only a smaller time unit. Way to check time.

But, if he opens the door before combat, the enemies get a chance to react.

well, tough luck. That is the reason that it is called surprice round.

Otherwise every door encounter in the game results in a surprise round for the PCs nearly every time.

No, unless they know that there are enemies behind the door. They can go kicking doors every time and casting boost spells, but that sound can be heard at the next room, so the enemies there can hear tand get ready.

It is not too hard on the other side of a door to sneak up to it, listen for anything inside, if someone is heard, open the door and cast in free surprise round as long as they did not hear the PCs (which through a door if not actively listening is likely).

Yes. Nice that you got it. And wouldnt that be nice there to be another arventure group. And the kidnapped princess they were looking for. "What, fireball... nooooo..."

Also, if casting a spell before combat starts might take away the opportunity for surprise (as per the example you quoted), so could opening a door.

es it can if they doesn't succeed to open the door with one attempt. Then they notice that someone tried to come inside and react in time to act when the door opens with second attempt.

Any non-subtle action can alert the enemies and foil surprise.

Yep, it can. But think that what is the surprice. Is surprise to do something that enemy doesn't know or something that surprisees them like door opening when they do not exept that.

And btw, opening a door is a move action, not a standard action. But, that's just a quibble.

So then it can't be opened as a surprise round. Didn't that give an standard action and not move a like? (splitting the hairs...)

But in my opinion. Something happens. Was that unexepted? If yes then those who knew that to happen aren't and those who didn't are. Opening the door is the thing that surprises monsters. All execpt the one that has duty to guard the door with drawn weapon. Then that is init for him and PC's.

But the difference in our points of views are that in my opinion opening the door surprises monsters in the room. In your opinion - well can't be sure, maybe the surprise is that the combat starts before enemy can see you. That is something that I would like you to clarify. What is the thing that surprises the enemy?

And kicking the door in is not automatic. Door has hardness and you have to make damage to it to break it in. If that doesn't break with one try then there will not be surprise. And trying to open locked door gives a spot/listen checks too. and why should the surprising thing gives checks to avoid the surprise?

And what comes to the swat team. The one who breaks the door usually has his hands full of door breaker - not weapons. So unprepared guy running in first is really a special tactics with special door breaking weapon in his hands.

And yes there are some sarcasm im my posts...

I might not be correct but all I said makes perfect sense to me and better sense than your theory.

 

[KarinsDad]

I might not be correct but all I said makes perfect sense to me and better sense than your theory.

First, I am not basing this off a theory. I am basing it off what the rules state.

Second, you are not correct.

But the difference in our points of views are that in my opinion opening the door surprises monsters in the room. In your opinion - well can't be sure, maybe the surprise is that the combat starts before enemy can see you. That is something that I would like you to clarify. What is the thing that surprises the enemy?

In your opinion, opening the door surprises the monsters every single time. That is the problem with your POV from a rules perspective.

What do the rules state?

Determine which characters are aware of their opponents at the start of the battle. If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds of combat begin. The combatants who are aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take one action (either a standard action or a move action) during the surprise round. Combatants who were unaware do not get to act in the surprise round. If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round.

Now, the key question here is when is the start of the battle?

The DM has two choices:

1) Before the door is open.

2) After the door is open.

The DM can pick either one of these. Let's examine both:

1) If the door is still closed and combat starts, that means the initiatives for PCs are rolled first before the door is opened. NPCs if they are unaware do not get to roll initiatives. That means that some PC has to open the door as a move action during the surprise round if the PCs want to enter the room during the surprise round.

2) If the door is open (opening it was a pre-combat action by the PCs), then the NPCs get to roll to see if they are aware or not. It is the start of battle. By definition, the DM determines who is aware at the start of battle. Since the door is open, it is likely that some or all of the NPCs will be aware. If all of them fail their roll, there is a surprise round with no NPCs. If some of them fail their roll, there is a surprise round with some NPCs. If none of them fail their roll, there is no surprise round since everyone is aware.


That's the rules.


Given the rules as written (and not that one poorly written example), creatures at the start of combat are either aware, or they are not. Your POV is allowing the PC to take an action (opening the door) and the action itself is incapable of alerting the NPCs to danger. Hence, your POV is incorrect based on how the rules work.


Let's take a different example. Let's say that there is no door, but the PCs are out of sight and surrounding the door.

Instead of taking an "open the door" action, the PCs decide to cast a Bless and then rush in.

From your POV, the act of casting the Bless (like the action of opening the door) is not capable of alerting the NPCs because the casting the spell IS the surprise.

From my POV, if the NPCs hear the Bless being cast, they can react.

Your POV does not make sense (from a RULES perspective) for this example, anymore than it makes sense for opening the door.

 

[Legildur]

So then it can't be opened as a surprise round. Didn't that give an standard action and not move a like? (splitting the hairs...)

From the SRD:

You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

And from the Table on Move Actions:

Open or close a door

 

[Alamankarazieff]

Hi,

I'm the culprit.

I ruled the door kicking initiative surprise sheenaneegan exactly the way Karins Dad described it.

As for the readyed action, the condition of the drider casting was " if the fighter readies an attack against me." So something more precise than "on its turn".
It doesn't sound very realistic but this "campaign" if I dare use the word we're running is a experiment in pure metagaming, to get the +1 out of our system and move on to proper roleplaying later on.

 

[Legildur]

As for the readyed action, the condition of the drider casting was " if the fighter readies an attack against me." So something more precise than "on its turn".

Still not a valid or legitimate use of the Ready Action. If the Drider cast, then the Fighter gets his readied attack. Period.

 

[Jacen]

First, I am not basing this off a theory. I am basing it off what the rules state.

And still I think that my opinion is correct. Even thought I read and even think that I understood your point.

In your opinion, opening the door surprises the monsters every single time.

No. NPCs can get a tip that prevents them being surprised. Like noise behind the door or scout who entered the room first and tipped them off, some spy point where they can see outside the door, trying to open the locked door, noise of the armors, failed move silently check.

Now, the key question here is when is the start of the battle?

The DM has two choices:

1) Before the door is open.

2) After the door is open.

The DM can pick either one of these. Let's examine both:

1) If the door is still closed and combat starts, that means the initiatives for PCs are rolled first before the door is opened. NPCs if they are unaware do not get to roll initiatives. That means that some PC has to open the door as a move action during the surprise round if the PCs want to enter the room during the surprise round.

2) If the door is open (opening it was a pre-combat action by the PCs), then the NPCs get to roll to see if they are aware or not. It is the start of battle. By definition, the DM determines who is aware at the start of battle. Since the door is open, it is likely that some or all of the NPCs will be aware. If all of them fail their roll, there is a surprise round with no NPCs. If some of them fail their roll, there is a surprise round with some NPCs. If none of them fail their roll, there is no surprise round since everyone is aware.


That's the rules.

So by stating that I am always prepared to combat time resolution is always round. Hey let's keep the combat on always.

Given the rules as written (and not that one poorly written example), creatures at the start of combat are either aware, or they are not. Your POV is allowing the PC to take an action (opening the door) and the action itself is incapable of alerting the NPCs to danger. Hence, your POV is incorrect based on how the rules work.

Hmmm... If the doors opening fails NPCs are aware. How about the idea the in the room is only a ghost sound spell? So no real enemy. How there can be an combat without an enemy. PCs were aware that there might be someone inside the room, but there wasn't. How there can be a surprise without an enemy to surprise? In my POV combat start only if there is an enemy inside.

Let's take a different example. Let's say that there is no door, but the PCs are out of sight and surrounding the door.

Instead of taking an "open the door" action, the PCs decide to cast a Bless and then rush in.

From your POV, the act of casting the Bless (like the action of opening the door) is not capable of alerting the NPCs because the casting the spell IS the surprise.

Yes it is capable to do that. Don't put words on my mouth. Casting is not the surprise. It is something that can prevent the surprise. Surprise is the PC rushing in. If they hear the casting -> no surprise because they know someone is there. If they don't they will be surprised when the PC rushes in -> standard action.

Combat starts when there is something to cause the combat like enemy, hostile spell effect etc. Door opens and there is another firendly NPC -> surprised, but not combat. Enemy -> surprise and combat starts. NPCs werent aware of NPC or PC's but combat starts only if it was hostile. Time units can yet be rounds, but it is no combat.

So is casting in you POV surprise action? If it is then NPCs get to act before PC rushes in. If it is not then why did you thing that it is in my point of view?

From my POV, if the NPCs hear the Bless being cast, they can react.

So they do in my POV. Combat is not yet started.

Your POV does not make sense (from a RULES perspective) for this example, anymore than it makes sense for opening the door.

You didn't have my POV. You only thought something that you thought was my POV. And in my opinion it still makes perfect sense. There might be some problems or errors in how I think this works, but still it makes more sense to me than your thinking.

Anyway, now I need to go practice my swordmanship - (steel) longswords (bastard swords) rules.

 

[MarkB]

And, the example is obviously wrong. It states that he casts two spells in the previous 2 rounds. There are no "rounds" before combat.

This, in particular, is definitely incorrect. There is no initiative order before combat begins, but you can and should track actions round-by-round at any point where it is important to do so. In fact, the DMG recommends doing precisely that in a situation where one side has time to prepare before the other side becomes aware of them.

 

[KarinsDad]

As for the readyed action, the condition of the drider casting was " if the fighter readies an attack against me." So something more precise than "on its turn".
It doesn't sound very realistic but this "campaign" if I dare use the word we're running is a experiment in pure metagaming, to get the +1 out of our system and move on to proper roleplaying later on.

Well, it's interesting that you did that, but the OP did not explain that you were doing a house rules experiment with the rules.

In the normal rules, readying on metagaming concepts it not legal.