D&D 4E 4E: Shifting complexity rather than simplifying?

One of the stated goals of 4E is to make play faster & more fun, in part by simplifying preparation & work by the DM.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that 4E will actually be a simpler system. I'd posit that 4E is actually increasing in complexity, but achieving simpler play by shifting some of the complexity from the DM to the players, and then by further shifting some of that complexity from in-play to out-of-play activities.

For example, take a look at characters created using Bo9S. Although these are ostensibly fighter-type characters, they are much more involved to create. There are significantly more options the player much explore, and the character has more choices and different mechanics at each level than ever before -- in addition to feats and skills, you have maneuvers and stances which have their own allocation and mechanics. But most of that reserach and choice by the character is done out of game. When the player comes to the table, there are a manageable few choices for the player to make, and the player is the one keeping up with the mechanics rather than the DM. The system itself is more complex, but the play is simpler.

It's kind of like why one of my players played a sorcerer rather than a wizard: he had weeks between game sessions to decide on what spell choices to make; in game there were a relatively small number of spells to choose from so decisions were much easier. he'd off-loaded game complexoty from in-game to out-of-game.

Olgar Shiverstone said:

For example, take a look at characters created using Bo9S. Although these are ostensibly fighter-type characters, they are much more involved to create... The system itself is more complex, but the play is simpler.

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Not sure I agree with this analogy - it strikes me that the Bo9S characters are more complex in play that the other martial characters. Especially at high level, a Warblade is significantly more complex in play than a Fighter.

For the rest of what you said, I think you might well be right in several parts. I'm not convinced, however, that more than a very small minority of players really want to do homework for a game. It's also worth noting that if creating characters becomes more complex, then that stands in opposition to their stated goal of making preparation simpler for the DM... since he will have to create classed NPCs for his PCs to interact with and oppose.

I wouldn't mind if this were the case. As a player, I like having lots of options, and I like being able to come up with cool and effective feat or maneuver combos.

As a DM, I hate options. I really like to run things on the fly and 3.5 made that difficult. If 4e can make it easier, then I will totally love it.

Well, I've always found it obnoxious that when one says "let's simplify" there's lots of people who immediately think "remove character choices", so I certainly agree with the OP.

If the problem is "too much stuff to choose from" then just play with less books... you can't stack a pile of rulebooks because it's cool and then complain you're not able to sort out through all of them

However I'm not sure how making it harder on the players would make it easier to the DM, they seem quite unrelated to me.

One positive thing (for me) of making it more complicated to create characters, and therefore to level up, is that it forces the players to level up at the end of the session, and not in the middle.

Some out of game elements will only be more complex in the number of choices. But, once a choice is decided upon, it becomes more simple.

As an example, skills. Once the player (or DM) decides which trained skills the character is going to have, it is simplicity itself to add one to all of the skills on even levels and to add nothing to them on even levels.

Once the choice of which trained skills to have is made (a complex decision), it's easy to figure out 15th level skills:

7 + ability mod: untrained
12 + ability mod: trained
17 + ability mod: trained plus skill focus

In fact, a simple chart in the DMG would allow a DM to assign all of the skills for a high level PC in a matter of moments.


Feat and talents, on the other hand, will be more complex to decide upon out of game. For all of the advantage that the system will give the DM for creating an NPC in quicker skills and fewer magic items, it will make it a LOT more difficult to create an NPC in talents and feats.

In 3E, a 15th level Rogue was complex with skill choice and magic item choice, but he only had 6 feats and 2 special abilities to pick. The rest of his abilities were chosen for him.

In 4e, it will be likely that skills and magic items will be a lot more easy, but the 15th level Rogue will have 13 feats and 8 talents to choose.

That nearly triples the number of choices a DM has to make for special abilities for the same level Rogue from 3E to 4E.

Easier in some ways. More complex in others.


On the other hand, it is really looking like in game complexity will increase significantly which is not what the OP concluded.

The synergies of every PC giving advantages of some form or another to another PC (or PCs) will not make the system simpler. It will add more rules, not fewer. More bonuses to remember, not less.

If options for PC builds increase then 4e will definitely need some system to allow DMs to build NPCs quickly. That's a serious issue with 3.5 currently.

Also there will have to be a solution to the problem of rapid PC turnover ie death.

I think the complexity is going up dramatically from everything that I have seen so far. Here is why: every character essentially becomes a spell caster. Every group has one of those players who likes to play the fighter because he doesnt want to deal with spells and everything that that means in-game and out-of-game. This will be a detriment if it truly is more complex- we have not seen enough yet, my hunch is that it is.

However, getting rid of the vancian system and putting in a hybrid warlock/book of 9 swords system should bring down the complexity of the spellcasting system- giving each caster fewer option (especially the cleric). If every class essentially works the same but has a different list of powers to draw from, this could be workable and actually get that player who only plays a fighter to play something else. Only time will tell.

Oh and I dont like out of game time!
Shifting additional complexity to out of game is a cop out. I dont like it.

Doug McCrae said:

If options for PC builds increase then 4e will definitely need some system to allow DMs to build NPCs quickly. That's a serious issue with 3.5 currently.

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Indeed. Since I run humanoidocentric campaigns, what they do with monsters impacts me far less than what they do with classed-character build mechanics. An increase in player prep time would be an order of magnitude greater increase in GM prep time.

Considering WotC has said they want to make the GM's life easier, including prep time, I don't really see this problem manifesting, though. We'll be just fine.

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