This is my first post here, so please cut me some slack if this tread is redundant or out of line. I tried finding a Search option for similar threads (I'm sure there are others), but it alluded me.
So why am I posting? This forum has a good mix of Pro-4th and Anti-4th and I can understand the views of both camps. What's more important, though, is that I think I understand the position of WotC. For that reason, I'm posting here.
See, I believe 4th ed was built for me.
I first played D&D back in '91 when my best friend found his parents old books and begged them to teach us. We were actually playing a mix of Chivalry & Sorcery and 1ed AD&D. We played every night for a week and I was hooked. Since then, I've played OD&D, 2nd Ed, a host of other RPGs. I've spent half my time as DM and the other half as a player.
My local group picked up 3rd ed when it came out and spend a week converting our 2nd ed characters. I picked up 3.5 when it came out for my personal copy of the 3 core books. Our 3rd ed campaigns ranged from mid level to low level and usually lasted a few months. Real life (and football season) often got in the way of arranging weekly groups, so I've gone sometimes a year or two without playing, but in the end, I've always gotten back into it with one group, another, are parts of both.
This last year, I picked up the DM screen again and starting playing with my fiancee and some family. It's been a blast. Yet, still months go by without us playing, so again...
I am a casual DM.
Because of my limited time, I am forced into buying pre-written adventures. Of course, I customize them as needed and with what time allows. Still, I feel a little cheated because I'm a very creative person who loves adventure/world building. I've decided that I must sacrifice my creative passion for the sake of quick gaming. The newer WotC adventures are great for this (Shattered Gates of Slaughterguard), but I wish I could do more on my own.
Thus, WotC has made 4th ed for me.
Of course, I don't know what the final product will be like, but their preview articles lead me to believe this. As a casual DM, here are my problems with 3rd ed (which I still think is the best ed made so far) . . . In no particular order:
1) With 3rd ed, I only like running low level campaigns. Levels 2 through 7 are my sweet spot. Beyond that, it's too much work to run a game! Even pre-made adventures past these levels blow me away. I read through them and there are so many stat blocks, so many powers, charts, numbers, etc, that I can't even wrap my head around them.
I look at the AC and attack bonuses of mid-high level monsters and I think "How the hell are my PCs supposed to hit/survive that?!" Then I realize that my PCs are supposed to be buffed by multiple spells and decked out with lots of magic items. So then my little DM mind starts to think, "In order to get my PCs into this kind of fight, I must place X, Y, Z, in my earlier adventures or else they are going to get wiped."
So my adventure design turns into, "how can I fit all these magic items in here..."
2) If mid-high level monsters are bad, forget about NPCs. Yes, the DMG has pre-written NPCs, but their stat blocks are even worse than the monsters. Creating one from scratch? I don't have the time to assign 10 levels worth of skill points, feats (how many feats does he need again?), and then all the magic gear that he/she needs for that level (how much wealth is he/she supposed to have? Then convert that to a half-dozen magic items...) Then there's spell selection . . .
3) Character Creation and Classes
a) Skill system only used by Rogues (rangers and barbs a little too). Why have this system that only one class really takes advantage of? I think the d20 skill system was a great invention of 3rd ed (remember 2nd ed proficiencies?!), but I get so annoyed that only the Rogues ever Spot or Hear anything. It's a mechanic (and whole chapter of book) that is barely used by half the classes.
b) Magic is hard to understand for new players. Low level Wizard/Cleric... you have a dozen spells to choose from, but you can only pick 1 or 2 ahead of time, and cast it just that once or twice... HUH?! I always throw Vancian magic out immediately because it's impossible to explain it to new players without them immediately hating their class. I just tell them they cast X many spells per day and to just choose them when you cast... but then they sit with a PHB at their side and flip through pages during the entire game, trying to decide what to cast with their 1,2, or 3 spells per day.
c) Fighters start off as the funnest class to play at level 1. A first level fighter with high strength hits nearly every attack and does the most damage consistently. By the mid-high levels, the fighter is the most boring class to play because he hasn't grown much as a class.. the feats available are not enough to make him stand out and the monster HP totals get so high that he isn't killing things quickly any more. Wizards have the opposite problem, of course.
I could go on, but this is a sample of my problems with 3rd ed (a game I still love compared to past editions!). So what happens to my campaigns? I'll give you a run down.
I start at level 1. Creativity is flowing. Monsters are easy to run. Characters are vulnerable, but effective enough with their own power (not reliant on magic items I "seeded" into the campaign). NPCs are easy to create. Rewards are simple (100GP? Awesome!!). Other than the Wizards, everyone is generally enjoying their character and the game. Everything is quick and easy and I can make new adventures and run them every week or two with little problem.
Boom. Somewhere after 7th level, things start to slow down. I simply cannot create adventures fast enough to keep players together. None of my players want to run take over the campaign because they have little/no DM experience, and they see how much work is needed. So with only playing one session every few weeks, players forget how to run their higher level players (what does this feat do again? Or Let me see the Spells chapter again...). Game play slows down and we generally have less fun when we DO get together.
Months pass and what happens? Myself or another player starts a new campaign.
Level 1. Creativity is flowing. Monsters are easy to run... etc... etc.
From the view point of WotC, this is a group of players that hasn't purchased half their published content (focused on mid to high level play). This is a group of players (several actually) that go months or even years without playing, and are thus not buying ANY products. This is a group who spends money on MMO's rather than D&D because video games are simply quicker to play and can be played without local players.
Thus, 4th ed is needed and born.
I know many posters here will respond with posts like "10th level players aren't hard to run?!! And designing NPCs doesn't take THAT much work. Or being a DM requires COMMITMENT, KNOWLEDGE, and PLANNING; if you don't have those, don't apply.
Sorry. I have a job. I have a kid. I have university classes to work on. I have a few hours of leisure time a week and I can't spend them with my nose in a book, by myself, adding up numbers, flipping pages, and consulting charts.
Now, there is nothing wrong with the above, and when I was younger, single, and had more time, I actually LIKED doing that. But I think 4th ed "haters" need to realize that there is a shrinking population who has the time or interest to run games that way. Listen, traditionally there has been a HUGE difference between D&D nerds and average people (and I use the term nerd fondly). You can tell a D&D nerd because they CHOOSE to spend hours pouring through books, learning every detail of every monster, mechanic, and magic possible and then spending more hours putting all this together for a couple hours of playing time. Average people choose not to do that because they have other responsibilities and interests.
WotC is trying to grow their market beyond the D&D nerd, yes to attract new players (average people), but also to keep old nerds playing, nerds who don't have the time available like they used to. Simply put, copious amounts of free time and esoteric interest should not be a PREREQUISITE to running a D&D game past level 7.
Humbly submitted.
So why am I posting? This forum has a good mix of Pro-4th and Anti-4th and I can understand the views of both camps. What's more important, though, is that I think I understand the position of WotC. For that reason, I'm posting here.
See, I believe 4th ed was built for me.
I first played D&D back in '91 when my best friend found his parents old books and begged them to teach us. We were actually playing a mix of Chivalry & Sorcery and 1ed AD&D. We played every night for a week and I was hooked. Since then, I've played OD&D, 2nd Ed, a host of other RPGs. I've spent half my time as DM and the other half as a player.
My local group picked up 3rd ed when it came out and spend a week converting our 2nd ed characters. I picked up 3.5 when it came out for my personal copy of the 3 core books. Our 3rd ed campaigns ranged from mid level to low level and usually lasted a few months. Real life (and football season) often got in the way of arranging weekly groups, so I've gone sometimes a year or two without playing, but in the end, I've always gotten back into it with one group, another, are parts of both.
This last year, I picked up the DM screen again and starting playing with my fiancee and some family. It's been a blast. Yet, still months go by without us playing, so again...
I am a casual DM.
Because of my limited time, I am forced into buying pre-written adventures. Of course, I customize them as needed and with what time allows. Still, I feel a little cheated because I'm a very creative person who loves adventure/world building. I've decided that I must sacrifice my creative passion for the sake of quick gaming. The newer WotC adventures are great for this (Shattered Gates of Slaughterguard), but I wish I could do more on my own.
Thus, WotC has made 4th ed for me.
Of course, I don't know what the final product will be like, but their preview articles lead me to believe this. As a casual DM, here are my problems with 3rd ed (which I still think is the best ed made so far) . . . In no particular order:
1) With 3rd ed, I only like running low level campaigns. Levels 2 through 7 are my sweet spot. Beyond that, it's too much work to run a game! Even pre-made adventures past these levels blow me away. I read through them and there are so many stat blocks, so many powers, charts, numbers, etc, that I can't even wrap my head around them.
I look at the AC and attack bonuses of mid-high level monsters and I think "How the hell are my PCs supposed to hit/survive that?!" Then I realize that my PCs are supposed to be buffed by multiple spells and decked out with lots of magic items. So then my little DM mind starts to think, "In order to get my PCs into this kind of fight, I must place X, Y, Z, in my earlier adventures or else they are going to get wiped."
So my adventure design turns into, "how can I fit all these magic items in here..."
2) If mid-high level monsters are bad, forget about NPCs. Yes, the DMG has pre-written NPCs, but their stat blocks are even worse than the monsters. Creating one from scratch? I don't have the time to assign 10 levels worth of skill points, feats (how many feats does he need again?), and then all the magic gear that he/she needs for that level (how much wealth is he/she supposed to have? Then convert that to a half-dozen magic items...) Then there's spell selection . . .
3) Character Creation and Classes
a) Skill system only used by Rogues (rangers and barbs a little too). Why have this system that only one class really takes advantage of? I think the d20 skill system was a great invention of 3rd ed (remember 2nd ed proficiencies?!), but I get so annoyed that only the Rogues ever Spot or Hear anything. It's a mechanic (and whole chapter of book) that is barely used by half the classes.
b) Magic is hard to understand for new players. Low level Wizard/Cleric... you have a dozen spells to choose from, but you can only pick 1 or 2 ahead of time, and cast it just that once or twice... HUH?! I always throw Vancian magic out immediately because it's impossible to explain it to new players without them immediately hating their class. I just tell them they cast X many spells per day and to just choose them when you cast... but then they sit with a PHB at their side and flip through pages during the entire game, trying to decide what to cast with their 1,2, or 3 spells per day.
c) Fighters start off as the funnest class to play at level 1. A first level fighter with high strength hits nearly every attack and does the most damage consistently. By the mid-high levels, the fighter is the most boring class to play because he hasn't grown much as a class.. the feats available are not enough to make him stand out and the monster HP totals get so high that he isn't killing things quickly any more. Wizards have the opposite problem, of course.
I could go on, but this is a sample of my problems with 3rd ed (a game I still love compared to past editions!). So what happens to my campaigns? I'll give you a run down.
I start at level 1. Creativity is flowing. Monsters are easy to run. Characters are vulnerable, but effective enough with their own power (not reliant on magic items I "seeded" into the campaign). NPCs are easy to create. Rewards are simple (100GP? Awesome!!). Other than the Wizards, everyone is generally enjoying their character and the game. Everything is quick and easy and I can make new adventures and run them every week or two with little problem.
Boom. Somewhere after 7th level, things start to slow down. I simply cannot create adventures fast enough to keep players together. None of my players want to run take over the campaign because they have little/no DM experience, and they see how much work is needed. So with only playing one session every few weeks, players forget how to run their higher level players (what does this feat do again? Or Let me see the Spells chapter again...). Game play slows down and we generally have less fun when we DO get together.
Months pass and what happens? Myself or another player starts a new campaign.
Level 1. Creativity is flowing. Monsters are easy to run... etc... etc.
From the view point of WotC, this is a group of players that hasn't purchased half their published content (focused on mid to high level play). This is a group of players (several actually) that go months or even years without playing, and are thus not buying ANY products. This is a group who spends money on MMO's rather than D&D because video games are simply quicker to play and can be played without local players.
Thus, 4th ed is needed and born.
I know many posters here will respond with posts like "10th level players aren't hard to run?!! And designing NPCs doesn't take THAT much work. Or being a DM requires COMMITMENT, KNOWLEDGE, and PLANNING; if you don't have those, don't apply.
Sorry. I have a job. I have a kid. I have university classes to work on. I have a few hours of leisure time a week and I can't spend them with my nose in a book, by myself, adding up numbers, flipping pages, and consulting charts.
Now, there is nothing wrong with the above, and when I was younger, single, and had more time, I actually LIKED doing that. But I think 4th ed "haters" need to realize that there is a shrinking population who has the time or interest to run games that way. Listen, traditionally there has been a HUGE difference between D&D nerds and average people (and I use the term nerd fondly). You can tell a D&D nerd because they CHOOSE to spend hours pouring through books, learning every detail of every monster, mechanic, and magic possible and then spending more hours putting all this together for a couple hours of playing time. Average people choose not to do that because they have other responsibilities and interests.
WotC is trying to grow their market beyond the D&D nerd, yes to attract new players (average people), but also to keep old nerds playing, nerds who don't have the time available like they used to. Simply put, copious amounts of free time and esoteric interest should not be a PREREQUISITE to running a D&D game past level 7.
Humbly submitted.
I can't move my 3.x books without a hand truck.
