variant skill list (45+ -> 24)

I tried to get some isolated feedback on these ideas, but I believe one giant post with my skill list revision will generate the best responses. While I'm certainly open to ideas about how best to combine/streamline the skill system, and please also feel free to suggest better names (mine suck), the main thing I would like feedback on is whether or not you believe the skills per level for the classes seems fair, based on these skill revisions.

If this seems ripped from 4E docs, I'm sure a couple pieces of it were; also if the names are similar it's because they're obvious. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

Updated: 12/24/07

Skills

Changes to classes and skill usage:
• Skills and skill bonuses listed on items, spells, and class lists are now replaced with whatever skill now uses that type of check. Note that some skills may be covered under multiple new categories, depending on the situation.
• Class skill points per level are adjusted as follows: previous: 8, 6, 4, 2; changed to: 5, 4, 3, 2.
• There are no longer such things as skill synergy bonuses.
• All skills may be attempted untrained. However, for any skill that is normally trained, untrained attempts are made at a -5.
• Concentration checks will now be Will saves instead. DCs remain unchanged.
• Profession checks are now only untrained Wisdom checks. DCs may need to be adjusted as appropriate.

The following is a complete list of all skills.

Acrobatics (Dex)
Used for Balance, Escape Artist, and Tumble checks. Used whenever dexterous body movement is involved.

Additional Languages
Special: for each skill point spent, a character learns the rudiments of a language. If two skill points are spent (at any time) on a single language, the character becomes fluent. Reading and writing are included in this skill. This is a class skill for all classes.

Animal Handling (Wis)
Used for any Handle Animal or Ride check. Encompasses all animal handling and training.

Arcane (Int - trained)
Used for any Knowledge(arcana) check or Spellcraft check. May also be used to identify the properties of a magical item, as per the rules in the Magic Item Compendium. Encompasses all arcane knowledge and spell knowledge. May also be used to discover information about constructs, dragons, or magical beasts.

Athleticism (Str)
Used for any Climb, Jump, or Swim check. Used for any situation depending on athletic prowess.

Cosmology (Int - trained)
Used for any Knowledge(the planes) checks or Survival checks while on other planes. Encompasses all planar knowledge, as well as the ability to locate one’s self, or survive on other planes. May also be used to discover information about elementals or other creatures native to other planes.

Craft (Int - trained)
Special: The Craft skill allows you to create or build any type of item. The more complicated the item, the higher the DC will be. These generally fall into three categories:
• Mundane: Simple trade items, tools, weapons, and light armors. Examples include clothing, leather armor, morning stars, healing kits, or thieves' tools.
• Advanced: Complex items, tools, weapons, and medium armors. Examples include poisons, sunrods, longswords, chainmail, or some forms of artistic expression.
• Exotic: Anything especially unusual or complex in nature, or exotic weapons and heavy armor. Examples include steam engines, construct bodies, sculptures, houses, bastard swords, or full plate.
The DCs for mundane crafting checks can generally be described as: simple or ordinary - DC 15; moderately difficult or masterwork - DC 20; complex - DC 25; advanced - DC 30. Advanced crafting raises these DCs by 5. Exotic check DCs are 5 higher than advanced. However, all of these are only typical DCs and individual items may vary in DC based on the DM’s discretion. The DM determines which items fall into which categories. Special tools or equipment (for example: an alchemist’s lab, a forge, or a paintbrush) may be also required for certain checks. Forgery checks may be made using advanced crafting. (See existing rules for how long it takes to craft items. You can take 10 on craft checks, but not 20.)

Culture (Int - trained)
Used for any Knowledge(history), Knowledge(nobility and royalty), or Knowledge(local) check. Applies to all knowledge of historical events, political structures, local customs, and how to respect traditions and fit into any society. May also be used to discover information about humanoid creatures.

Engineering (Int - trained)
Used for any Knowledge(dungeoneering) or Knowledge(architecture and engineering) checks, or Survival checks when underground or in non-natural structures. Encompasses all structure or building knowledge as well as survival in dungeons. May be used in place of a Craft check for structures. May also be used to discover information about oozes or aberrations.

Heal (Wis)
Used for Heal checks. Encompasses all body knowledge as well as simple healing methods. In addition, a DC 20 Heal check may be attempted over one hour to cure 1 HP. (You can take 10 but not 20 on this roll.)

Ingenuity (Int - trained)
Used for any Decipher Script, Disable Device, or Use Magic Device checks. Encompasses all clever puzzle-solving abilities.

Insight (Wis)
Used for any Sense Motive check. Used to detect false information or resist being manipulated. Opposed by Subterfuge or Intimidate as necessary.

Inspection (Int)
Used for Appraise and Search checks. Encompasses all careful observation of minute details, including detection of forgeries.

Intimidate (Cha)
Used for intimidate checks as before. Opposed by Insight.

Legerdemain (Dex - trained)
Used for any Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, or Use Rope check. Encompasses all forms of manual dexterity.

Nature (Int - trained)
Used for any Knowledge(nature) or Knowledge(geography) checks, or Survival checks when outdoors. Encompasses the ability to map or locate one's self in an outdoor environment, as well as all information regarding naturally occuring flora and fauna. May be used to discover more information about animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, or vermin.

Perform (Cha)
Used for Perform checks. Used for any type of public speaking, song, or other performance.

Perception (Wis)
Used for any Listen or Spot rolls. Encompasses all detection abilities. Opposed by Stealth.

Persuasion (Cha)
Used for any Diplomacy or Gather Information checks. Instead of a one-time check, it is used as more of an active skill that may be rolled repeatedly in social situations as dialog and circumstances change, and is influenced by role-playing. May also be used in a more broad sense to persuade large numbers of people to be generally helpful.

Religion (Int - trained)
Used for any Knowledge(Religion) check. Generally applies to all religious-based knowledge, including some religious history. May be used to discover information about undead creatures.

Stealth (Dex)
Used for any Hide or Move Silent check. Used for any type of stealth movement. Opposed by Perception.

Subterfuge (Cha)
Used for any Bluff or Disguise check. Used whenever there is an attempt to fool another. Opposed by Insight or Perception as dictated by the use.

Looks pretty good. The SP per level seem balanced considering the skill number reduction.


My name suggestions:

• Diplomacy to Persuasion (diplomacy implies more formal ettiquette)
• Heal to Treat Injury or Treat Wounds (heal is a spell)
• Streetwise to Subterfuge (aristocrats bluff too)

My recombination suggestions:

• Move Forgery to Advanced Craft
• Unite Customs & History into something like Realmlore
• Move planar knowledge/survival to it's own WIS-based skill or combine it with Religion and call it Spirituality or somesuch.

Thank you for the excellent feedback!

RPG_Tweaker said:

• Diplomacy to Persuasion (diplomacy implies more formal ettiquette)

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...I like it. Also works well to the "affects multiple people" idea. Done.

RPG_Tweaker said:

• Heal to Treat Injury or Treat Wounds (heal is a spell)

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Yes, but heal is also the name of the skill previously. Treat Wounds is also kinda close to cure light wounds, which gives the wrong impression since it doesn't really heal any wounds, and "treating" in the name really almost limits the skill from what all it can do (like diagnose poisons and determine cause of death). "First Aid" is really the better name, but it fails the fantasy setting rule. "Triage" doesn't really work for the same reasons as "treat wound." I hear what you're saying, though, and I think there is a better name out there. (Then again, maybe allowing this skill to actually HEAL some freakin' WOUNDS wouldn't be a bad change, either.)

RPG_Tweaker said:

• Streetwise to Subterfuge (aristocrats bluff too)

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Excellent idea. Honestly I just used streetwise because I think there's going to be a 4E skill named that, and that's the only thing I could think of that it would be (other than it being some combination of Knowledge(Local) and maybe Sense Motive). But for what I've done that's much better.

RPG_Tweaker said:

• Move Forgery to Advanced Craft

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Man, Forgery has got to win as the absolute worst skill ever. How did that even end up qualifying as a skill? I mean, who in their right mind would dump precious skill points into something that absolutely will not get used more often than maybe once an entire campaign? Who wants to be the guy who says, "well, I constantly almost drown and fall off my horse every mile, but now that we need someone to use Forgery this one time ever, I AM YOUR MAN!" And it's really even worse, because it's opposed by Spot - which is a skill that LOTS of people put points in. Every skill- or wisdom-based class will have it in spades. If you actually want your points in Forgery not to be a total waste, you have to COMPLETELY COMMIT to it. What a horrible skill.

Anyway, all that aside, I don't think I'll likely change it to craft, since crafting really implies just creating an object. Forgery is really more about tricking other people; it's a social engineering thing at least as much as an accuracy thing. I think it fits better under the "tricking others" skills - more like "forging a signature" or "making a fake legal document" - rather than just imagining a guy who crafts a plate to make dollar bills.

RPG_Tweaker said:

• Unite Customs & History into something like Realmlore

Click to expand...

My first thought on this was, "nah, those subjects are just too disparate for that to work." And really, they are - people and current politics are quite different than historical events. On the other hand, how many players honestly put points into Knowledge(any of those) except to qualify for PrCs or get some synergy bonus? Probably not many - so paring them down is probably a very good thing. Then again, if you're going that far, why not throw Religion in the mix and rename the whole thing High School Social Studies? I guess I wouldn't mix Math and Physics as skills, so I think I'll leave the Civics out of History. It's a good point, but I just don't know if I can blur them that much. (I already threw a little geography into history; it seems like too much to do the rest.) Although I did get an idea for a better name: Culture.

RPG_Tweaker said:

• Move planar knowledge/survival to it's own WIS-based skill or combine it with Religion and call it Spirituality or somesuch.

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I totally hear what you're saying, and I agree that survival and "survival on other planes" is really a bit of a stretch. They don't really match up, but as you've suggested, "survival on other planes" really doesn't deserve to stand on its own, either. Matching it with Religion was something I'd never have thought of, given that I think of religion much differently than "knowing about the plane of fire," but then again, D&D cosmology is pretty much based on religion, so it is a decent fit. Certainly worth considering. In the end, though, who is going to survive better on another plane: the guy who's already good at it on your plane, or the guy who spends all day in a temple worshiping? To me, it seemed like a "survivalist" is going to be better at "surviving," despite the location, verses a guy who just knows a lot about praying.



Edit: Oh, and honestly, I still think my worst two names are Animal Training and Construction. The latter is particularly bad because it directly implies alternate meanings (such as: one is good at constructing things, as opposed to just knowing about constructions). However, I just can't think of a better word to encapsulate "knowing about all things related to structures or dungeons." I might add the word "knowledge" to the end of it, just to clarify - although that makes it even worse.

One of my problems with skill consolidation is that it creates problems when you want to describe especial skill. For an aquatic creature, '+8 racial bonus to swim' turns into '+8 racial bonus to atheletics when making an atheletics skill check to swim'. Add to this minor problem that it also means you have an extra lookup when trying to look up the swim check. This isn't an uncommon situation when handling creatures that depart in some way from human norms.

For example, I could easily envision a PC race with +4 to climb and jump, but -4 to swim (say an intelligent chimpanzee-like race). Consider how much more complicated keeping track of this would be if the unlike skills are consolidated into something more abstract?

Even more problimatic AFAIC, by consolidating the unlike skills in this way you have to be careful that you make clear that the above design is even still possible because it becomes unintuitive in a way that it would be with distinct skills. You have to watch that your 'rules light' doesn't become a synonym for 'bland and undistinctive', or that in an attempt to correct that you don't create a rules light ruleset that isn't rules light but functionally equivalent to what you tried to replace.

There are other problems. When you fold in skills, be careful you don't create uberskills. One of the biggest problems in the existing system is that the skills aren't particularly well balanced. But you seem to have made that somewhat worse. In particular, 'Ingenuity' (Use Magic Device!!) and 'Acrobatics' are just insanely good, and I can see just about every single character I played that didn't have them class going cross class into at least one of them and perhaps both. 'Survival' is really borderline too, but is a better example of an even bigger problem - baggage.

One of the immediate problems that you have is that you can't take ranks in something without baggage coming along with it. Under your system, every simple backwoodsman that knows the lay of the land is not only good at hunting, but has intimate knowledge of the ways of the outer planes. Most players simply won't look this gift horse in the mouth dispite the silliness of it, but others are going to complain about it and it will necessitate metagaming by any DM that doesn't want ordinary woodcutters and bandits knowing the layout of the City of Brass or the name of the ruler of the 65th layer of the Abyss. One of the problems with this is that you have to know to metagame in the first place. New referees may assume its your intention based on the rules that every desert nomad be intimately familiar with the geography and nature of the Elemental Plane of Water, or that every fop and courtesan familiar with the treachery of the imperial court also be equally able to pass themselves off successfully as a gutterborn member of the underclass, or that every peasant than can handle a plow oxen is equally comfortable on the back of a raging battle trained charger.

In short, it seems like you are trying to create a system which has a priori assumed that skill checks are neither common nor particularly meaningful (and never attempted by NPCs), and so can be safely brushed aside without much loss to the game experience.

Unfortunately for arguements of this form, the skill list and its divisions are wholly arbitrary. Shouldn't "swim" be divided into surface and immersed forms? I can easily think of a species that maneuvers well on the surface, but not underwater - or vice versa. Now we've got a subnote on "swim". Why aren't there specific skills for running, braciation, or swinging? Maybe different skills for high and low gravity conditions or for differing ground conditions? Shouldn't many creatures with no normal land speed have access to skills that let them move around a bit? Aren't arctic survival skills different from those used in the amazon rain forest? Can't I be an expert on a particular nations history and not others? Know chemistry but not physics? Know about a particular religion and not all religions?

Of course I can. I may have different strength scores for my right and left arm too. Any fixed skill list includes skills with excess baggage (hard to complain about that when Knowledge: Planes covers an infinite number of dimensions), skills which are too broad, and skills which are too narrow for some character conceptions. I've got games like Ysgarth with hundreds of listed skills, and games like TORG which only use a few (Know how to work a balloon? Fly a starship! It's all "Air Vehicles"). They all work.

In place of Construction, how about Engineering? I know it's not perfect, but I doubt you'll find something that is, to be honest.

I'd go with Animal Handling rather than Animal Training. Again, not perfect, but it sounds like a more appropriate catch-all to me.

I renamed Knowledge (the planes) to Cosmology, IMCs. And it's still a useful skill, providing insight into well, the planes obviously, but also beings, objects and phenomena in or from them, history in a really damn large kinda scope, and whatever else falls into the category. If your campaigns don't deal with a lot of extraplanar stuff - one way or another - then perhaps you'll still need to combine it with something else.

Arcana has a bit of a problem, given that Clerics would then either have no (class) access to Spellcraft anymore, or would have full (class) access to 'Knowledge (arcana)' as well.

I'd also be really tempted to separate out Swim, at least.

Balance and Tumble, I totally get. Escape Artist though, seems to me a different beast. Could it be paired with Use Rope. . .?

I'll second Forgery as a component of Craft. It is crafting something, as much as calligraphy or cartography is. There's no 'social engineering' involved, at least not inherently, just accuracy (hopefully.) It should run off Int, and under Craft, it does.

I renamed Knowledge (religion) to Theology. It stays, because knowing the ins and outs (e.g., ceremonies) of religions doesn't fall under any other heading (IMHR.) I also created a separate knowledge skill for each monster type (well, most of them.) So, naturally, knowing about the undead is its own thing. YMMV, etc.

That's my bunch of semi-random thoughts for now. Hope some of it makes sense, and might even be useful.


edit --- for a bit of context, I give out more skill points to everything and everyone. So a lot of my own decisions probably won't be applicable. . .

evilbob said:

Anyway, all that aside, I don't think I'll likely change it to craft, since crafting really implies just creating an object. Forgery is really more about tricking other people; it's a social engineering thing at least as much as an accuracy thing. I think it fits better under the "tricking others" skills - more like "forging a signature" or "making a fake legal document" - rather than just imagining a guy who crafts a plate to make dollar bills.

Click to expand...

Forging a signature or making a billnote is a function of one's artistic eye, thus my suggestion of craft.

Distracting someone to not notice any irregularities is an act of subterfuge.

evilbob said:

In the end, though, who is going to survive better on another plane: the guy who's already good at it on your plane, or the guy who spends all day in a temple worshiping? To me, it seemed like a "survivalist" is going to be better at "surviving," despite the location, verses a guy who just knows a lot about praying.

Click to expand...

I guess one should ask exactly how Survival functions on a different plane? Can you forage for food on the plane of fire? Set a lean-to in the astral plane? Track an outsider from one dimension to the next?

It seems that a plane has either reconizable terrain (forest, barrens, etc.) where survival is a comfortable fit, or they're totally alien (elemental, endless swirling mists, etc.) where knowledge would be more appropriate than an outdoorsman.


. . . .

I second Engineering. It's a fairly solid fit.

Think about Animal Ken.

Hooray for lots of good thoughts and suggestions! Thank you all very much. I'll see if I can address them all...


Celebrim: You are completely right. Skill consolidation can certainly impeed both flavor and realism. But, it's really all a balancing act: litterally every skill could be divided and subdivided dozens of times, and you could end up having thousands of skills. I've even seen games where there are no pre-defined skills; you just make up what you want. "Skills" as a measure of one's ability are virtually limitless; therefore some consolidation has to occur just to keep bookkeeping reasonable and a game playable. You might have thousands of choices, but players won't touch the vast majority of them: you should keep it simpler so that it becomes more accessable (and I am NOT suggestions kowtowing to the LCD, which is a rebuttal I occationally see on these boards - NO ONE is going to pour over a hundred choices for anything; they'll learn which 3 are the best and just use those). Barring letting players come up with skills on their own, some sort of order must happen. Once this is a given, it only becomes a matter of deciding how much consolidation must occur.

3.5 went with a semi-broad approach that has some perks and some obvious flaws. One thing that will likely -always- be consistent is that there will -always- be a small number of skills that are MORE useful than all other skills. Spellcraft, Spot, and Tumble were ALWAYS much better skill choices than Knowledge(history), Appraise, and the king of crap: Forgery. This is just the nature of the beast: depending on your campaign, certain skills are worthless and others are no-brainers. My goal, which I should have stated at the outset, was to create a smaller, easier to manage skill set that made -each skill useful.- I was happen to sacrifice wide swaths of flavor and realism in order to gain the benefit of having every single skill point be a useful investment. Combining things like Spot and Listen made things much, much simpler, and I do not believe I lost that much flavor. Yes, some concessions will be made and some detail will be lost (your poor chimp race, for example), but I view those as acceptable in order to get things moving faster and easier. As many already have said: life is already too complicated. This is a game.

However, your point about baggage is also legit. Honestly, yes: I do envision that the guy who spends all of his life out in the woods -would- have a better chance to survive on the Plane of Water than someone else; those things seem related to me. However, your point and others' seem to really stick on the Knowledge(Planes) question, and so it might require a revision.


Claudius Gaius: I think I just repeated what you said...

Aus_Snow and RPG_Tweaker: Engineering... Well, it's certainly not worse! The main issue I have is that it is hard to convey both a knowledge of underground structures AND buildings and AND creatures that might be native to them... But all the same, Engineering is much closer. Done.

Animal Handling... Yeah, certainly closer. Still not quite there, but better. Done.

Cosmology vs. Survival... Now that is an excellent name if I break out that skill. It seems like it almost needs to be done, although my biggest sticking point is still that the Cosmology skill would be lumping all planes into one, but at the same time ignoring the material plane. If you're going to lump all planes into one, why not include THIS plane? Why does it get its own skill? If you can forage in a forest, how is that MORE different that foraging on the plane of water vs. the plane of fire and the plane of water? I'm not arguing that it's different, but it still seems like the material plane is a plane, too. Still pondering...

Arcana giving clerics access to Knowledge(Arcana) is not a problem for me.

Swim is just too little of a skill to separate out. Plus, Athleticism REALLY covers that one well, I believe. If you're good at jumping and climbing and stuff like that, you're good at -being fit- and -having good body conditioning-. Swimming in that? Certainly.

Balance + Tumble + Escape Artist was something I thought up on my own AND I saw it in either a 4E discussion or SW:Saga, I think. I think the general link between all those skills is "manipulating your body in a dexterous way." Wiggling, dodging, balancing - all of those things are heavily related. In fact, this is one of the best consolidations on the list, I think - other than Spot and Listen.

Forgery in craft... I still think a well-worded "fake" legal document is just as much of a good forgery as a very properly-written document. But it's a good argument...


Edit: I've updated the OP with many of the suggestions.

Another quick comment I have about this process is that one of the biggest consolidations I've made so far hasn't received any direct comments, and that is Craft. I originally pared it down from an infinite number of skills to 7: alchemy, armor, art, exotic, mundane, structure, and weapon. These seemed to fit nicely and cover anything you'd want to do. However, in the end, I realized that this was still too many craft skills. For one, you have some skills - like Craft(Art) - that no one would likely take (at least, no one in most campaigns). Others are very useful, and others are still rather specialized. And no one without a large Int is going to really bother with them anyway. So, I changed it to just three: easy, medium, and hard. This absolutely destroys the original Craft mechanic, beyond all recognition - I mean, "armor" was just one thing, and now it's three, but at the same time you can make both heavy armor and BOATS with "exotic" crafting. It makes no sense at all from a "what do people learn to do in real life" sort of way. But at the same time, it's - at least in my opinion - an extremely good game mechanic. And it's one that I've been thinking of consolidating further, along these same lines:

Craft (Int)
Special: The Craft skill allows you to create any type of item. The more complicated the item, the higher the check will be. Certain items require a minimum skill level in order to even attempt. These generally fall into three categories:
• Mundane: Simple trade items, tools, weapons, and light armors. Examples include clothing, leather armor, morning stars, healing kits, or masterwork thieves' tools. In order to make any Mundane item, you must have a minimum Craft skill of 1.
• Advanced: Complex items, tools, weapons, and medium armors. Examples include poisons, sunrods, longswords, chainmail, or some forms of artistic expression. In order to make any Advanced item, you must have a minimum Craft skill of 10.
• Exotic: Anything especially unusual or complex in nature, or exotic weapons and heavy armor. Examples include steam engines, construct bodies, sculptures, houses, bastard swords, or full plate. In order to make any exotic item, you must have a minimum Craft skill of 18.
The DCs for crafting checks can generally be described as: simple or ordinary - DC 10; moderately difficult or masterwork - DC 15; complex - DC 20; advanced - DC 25. Exotic checks are typically more difficult on average, and normally the DCs are 5 higher. However, all of these are only typical DCs and individual items may vary in DC based on the DM’s discretion. The DM determines which items fall into which categories. Special tools or equipment (for example: an alchemist’s lab, a forge, or a paintbrush) may be also required for certain checks. Advanced or greater crafting may also be used for Forgery checks.


The bad thing about this is obvious: it's level-dependant. The poor level 1 paladin with EWP(Bastard Sword) can't make himself another sword until he's level 15. It's true: this is a problem. However, it both consolidates the skill nicely, and reflects at least a modicum of how someone might "get better" at crafting over time. It also fixes a few things that didn't make sense before, like how someone could craft expert-quality construct bodies but can't make a clay pot worth a crap. And best of all: 1 skill.

More thoughts?