variant skill list (45+ -> 24)

[Celebrim]

Unfortunately for arguements of this form, the skill list and its divisions are wholly arbitrary. Shouldn't "swim" be divided into surface and immersed forms? I can easily think of a species that maneuvers well on the surface, but not underwater - or vice versa. Now we've got a subnote on "swim". Why aren't there specific skills for running, braciation, or swinging? Maybe different skills for high and low gravity conditions or for differing ground conditions? Shouldn't many creatures with no normal land speed have access to skills that let them move around a bit? Aren't arctic survival skills different from those used in the amazon rain forest? Can't I be an expert on a particular nations history and not others? Know chemistry but not physics? Know about a particular religion and not all religions?

Of course I can. I may have different strength scores for my right and left arm too. Any fixed skill list includes skills with excess baggage (hard to complain about that when Knowledge: Planes covers an infinite number of dimensions), skills which are too broad, and skills which are too narrow for some character conceptions. I've got games like Ysgarth with hundreds of listed skills, and games like TORG which only use a few (Know how to work a balloon? Fly a starship! It's all "Air Vehicles"). They all work.

This is all true. Basically, a skill system needs to balance realism with playability. If all you cared about was playability, you wouldn't need a skill system at all - you could just use ability checks. Based on SW:SE, 4e seems to be moving in this direction. In SW:SE, everything is just an ability check in a slight disguise. Other than your inherent ability, there isn't much variation in skillfullness between characters of the same level and much of the variation that does exist is just class features in disguise (skill uses only available to 'trained' characters). The problem with this is having much distinctiveness in your skills. You have a system that plays fast, and isn't too worried about whether the results are 'appropriate' based on who the character is supposed to be.

To a certain extent, when the system gets this simple, I prefer to just drop it. The proposed system really only has 3-4 skills for most attibutes, zero for constitution, and only 1 for strength. Alot of them look to me like they could be consolidated further without any real harm - intimidate + bluff, perform + diplomacy, etc. Only int based skills have any real diversity, and some of these could be folded into something like 'Educated'.

The opposite intention is something like GURPS, with hundreds of skills covering almost any narrow field of human endeavor. The problem with that is that there isn't really an end to it. You end up with all sorts of relationships between the skills because they overlap so heavily, and the system gets really unwieldy. Power gamers try to ignore the system by dumping as many points as possible into attributes (effectively creating a skillless system again), and figuring out what your skill check between all the defaults and modifiers happens to be is a pain. It works best if the DM is using alot of fiat and loose interpretation (often specifically recommended in the rules), which works cross purposes to having a highly detailed system in the first place. (Which I why I left GURPS. All the detail didn't end up making my job as a DM easier, and in fact made it much more work.)

I think existing D20, while hardly perfect, does a good job of balancing the concerns. It's got about the right number of skills, IMO, although it doesn't necessarily define those skills as well as possible. I think that if you have 6 attributes, you probably need about 30-36 skills minimum, but probably not more than about 42-48 depending on what you think you can do with a skill (for example d20 skills are for the most part explicitly mundane and let you do mundane things, so it needs fewer skills). Ideally, the skills are split as close to evenly amongst the attributes as reasonable, and each covers a separate non-overlapping space so you can keep synergies, defaults and vagueness about when each particular skill applies to a minimum. Additionally, I think the whole skill system should be space covering so that there isn't a question where some unusual activity falls. For example, navigating a ship or paddling a boat probably comes under the already uber-skill 'Survival' in the current system, but it isn't explicitly so. Likewise, legal knowledge probably falls under 'Culture' and legal skill probably falls under Intimidate or Perform, but I'm guessing.

Notice again the baggage. All desert nomads are great ship pilots. All great ship pilots make great desert nomads. All lawyers are probably great dancers, or whatever.

 

[loseth]

I like it.

A suggestion for languages, though.

To protect the niche of high INT characters, make the cost of learning the rudiments of a language equal to 2 skill points minus your INT mod (minimum cost of 1) and the cost of becoming fluent equal to 5 minus your INT mod (minimum cost of 1).

 

[Celebrim]

My goal, which I should have stated at the outset, was to create a smaller, easier to manage skill set that made -each skill useful.- I was happen to sacrifice wide swaths of flavor and realism in order to gain the benefit of having every single skill point be a useful investment.

Well, in my rambling way I was saying that I'm not sure you achieved this goal. Partly, because you often consolidated together multiple 'useful skills' into a single uber-skill, while often leaving untouched less 'useful' skills. Spot and listen became 'perception'. Appraise and search became 'inspection'. Move silently and hide became 'stealth'. Climb, jump and swim became bundled into 'athleticism'. These aren't skills noone was taking. And in the most serious cases, balance and escape artist got bundled in with an existing uber-skill tumble, and Knowledge(nature), Knowledge(geography), Knowledge(the planes) got bundled in with another existing uber-skill to become 'survival', and three existing uber-skills spellcraft, knowledge (arcane), and Use Magic Device (!!!) got bundled into a single super-uber skill.

That last one is really problimatic because UMD is basically 3.5's only non-mundane skill. It's the one you can least afford to bundle into other skills for balance reasons. In a skillless system, UMD would become a class feature.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, you've still got things like 'Knowledge(History)' and 'Knowledge(Religion)' which are decent skills and depending on the DM very helpful, but are really passive and depend on the DM wanting to give you something for the skill. (In that way, they are potentially less useful than forgery, since at least forgery can be used in an active way.)

I think your revision is best when it does things like Legerdemain. Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, and Use Rope are marginal skills most of the time, so if you put them all together under a single manual dexterity skill, you have some justification. But I'm not really convinced that you've improved the system significantly merely by making the list shorter. You have to reduce the overlaps and cover the holes in the existing system. For the most part, you seem to have retained them with no big improvement in game balance and marginal improvement in playability.

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

To protect the niche of high INT characters, make the cost of learning the rudiments of a language equal to 2 skill points minus your INT mod (minimum cost of 1) and the cost of becoming fluent equal to 5 minus your INT mod (minimum cost of 1).

Too unwieldy, with no precedence.

High INT people get more skill points... so they'll naturally have a language-edge compared to those with low INT, should they choose to exploit it.

Besides, the only one with language as a class skill is the Bard.

 

[Claudius Gaius]

Perhaps a tiered system?

*Skill almost never comes up: 1 SP = +5 bonus.
*Skill comes up every few adventures: 1 SP = +3 bonus.
*Skill comes up every adventure: 1 SP = +2 Bonus
*Skill comes up several times an adventure: 2 SP = +3 Bonus
*Skill comes up many times an adventure: 1 SP = +1 Bonus​

or perhaps:

*Skill is almost never useful: 1 SP = +5 bonus.
*Skill is occasionally useful: 1 SP = +3 bonus.
*Skill is fairly often useful: 1 SP = +2 Bonus
*Skill is quite important: 2 SP = +3 Bonus
*Skill is often vital: 1 SP = +1 Bonus​

All subject to the normal skill maximums. You don't get any extranious bonus until your level qualifies for it. Thus, to take the most common example given above, "Forgery" almost never comes up: ergo, 1 SP = +5. If its a skill on its own, than character with 3 SP invested in it has a potential base bonus of +15, even though it won't all be available until L12.


Now, that will work for either a consolidated skill list, allowing people to take "specialities" in particular subskills, or as a basis for a general skill list.

Skill-enhancing Feats should work the same way: Ergo, someone with "Skill Focus: Forgery" would be a master forger, gaining a +15 bonus on his or her Forgery checks. Virtually no one without a similar focus on spotting forgeries would be able to detect his or her work - and the feat might actually be worth taking.

 

[evilbob]

loseth, RPG_Tweaker: Thanks for the compliment, loseth, but I have to go with RPG_Tweaker on that suggestion. I think he summed up my thoughts nicely.

Claudius Gaius: Kinda gotta go with the above for your suggestion too, pretty much for the same reasons, although it is interesting.

Celebrim: And again, all of those thoughts are fair. I have certainly created some uber-skills, which is at least partially the product of my artificial constraint of "generally working within the existing skill structure." Part of what I have intentionally done is make sure that this system is, more-or-less, "backward compatable," at least insofar as each previous skill is explained or given a place. Because I'm dealing with a system that already has baggage, there is no doubt that my system will continue that trend. That's not to say that it couldn't be tightened up; but as it was coming from a flawed premiss I can hardly defend the flaws.

I will say that much thought went into UMD, though; the way I see it, it is either something you can do because you are smart enough to figure it out, or because you are magically inclined anyway, so of course you're going to know more about magic than the next guy. It's a powerful skill, don't get me wrong, and I have certainly made it more accessable. But I just don't think that's a bad thing. For one, it seems like many magical items are getting removed in 4E, so there's less of a threat of it being too powerful - but this is hardly an argument for a 3.5 game. Overall, I guess "being able to use magical items" is still just not something I worry about too many players being able to do. Have I left myself open to a min/maxer to take advantage? Maybe. But in return, I've gained the ability for more players to actually have fun using a wider variety of magical items. Once again: seems like a good trade to me.

On the other hand, it's still worth considering: moving UMD out of Arcane and solely into Ingenuity. It's got merrit.

As for the Hide + Move Silently and Spot + Listen, it was entirely my thought that reducing the total number of skill points available would fix this issue. If you have two skills you would have bought anyway and half the skill points to spend on them, doesn't that work out exactly right? Except that, of course, it's more complicated than that, so I haven't made the total skills just half the previous total - but I am still looking for feedback on whether or not the 5, 4, 3, 2 system is a good amount.

As for Knowledge(History) and (Religion), I have always thought Religion could stand on its own, partially because of the undead knowledge, and also because so many PrCs require it for cleric- or just generally paragon-esque classes. (It also gives a solid boost to turning which is very useful - so much so it's generally considered a no-brainer.) However, History does prove to be the weakest link in my system. That's the only skill that doesn't really -do- anything for you, and even me adding "can kinda help with knowledge on humanoids" doesn't make it that much better. This was brought up earlier and I'm still undecided, but if anyone can come up with a good way to fold it into something else, I'm still listening.

More specifically though, other than dealing with UMD and pulling the Knowledge(Planes) out of Survival, are there other specific skills you think are too heavy? (Especially, again, considering that we're dealing with a lower total number of skill points.)

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

Another option is to make UMD a feat. This removes it from the skill pool, and makes this powerful ability uncommon (good thing IMO) by requiring a feat slot.


Use Magic Device
You have the ability to activate magic devices, including scrolls and wands, that you could not otherwise activate.
• Benefit: Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment. When attempting to emulate, Roll 1d20 + ½ Level + CHA vs DC based on YADDA, YADDA, YADDA, etc...
• Special 1: Should you fail, you may try again, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item
again for 24 hours.
• Special 2: You cannot take 10 with this feat.


You could power-it-up with a second layer feat that adds +5 to the roll...

 

[evilbob]

Another idea on craft:

Craft (Int)
Special: The Craft skill allows you to create any type of item. The more complicated the item, the higher the DC will be. These generally fall into three categories:
• Mundane: Simple trade items, tools, weapons, and light armors. Examples include clothing, leather armor, morning stars, healing kits, or thieves' tools.
• Advanced: Complex items, tools, weapons, and medium armors. Examples include poisons, sunrods, longswords, chainmail, or some forms of artistic expression.
• Exotic: Anything especially unusual or complex in nature, or exotic weapons and heavy armor. Examples include steam engines, construct bodies, sculptures, houses, bastard swords, or full plate.
The DCs for mundane crafting checks can generally be described as: simple or ordinary - DC 10; moderately difficult or masterwork - DC 15; complex - DC 20; advanced - DC 25. Advanced crafting raises these DCs by 5. Exotic check DCs are 5 higher than advanced. However, all of these are only typical DCs and individual items may vary in DC based on the DM’s discretion. The DM determines which items fall into which categories. Special tools or equipment (for example: an alchemist’s lab, a forge, or a paintbrush) may be also required for certain checks. Forgery checks may be made using advanced crafting. (See existing rules for how long it takes to craft items. You can take 10 on craft checks, but not 20.)


The upside to this is that there are no wonky side effects: it's just a straight check, and the harder the item, the harder it gets. Very complex stuff takes very high rolls, but you can take 10 and you can always try again if you want to risk a roll. It's possible to make an exotic weapon as a level 2 character - just not likely. At level 15, though, it's easy enough to take 10 and guarentee a success. Another good - and bad - thing is that the whole thing is squishy enough to handle any situation: the entire rule is basically "use rule 0." Again, this is both nice and a bit annoying.

The downside to this is that I just took all of craft and made it 1 skill. That's a positive thing, too, but it just pretty much took everything you'd ever make (ever!) and made it one skill. That's... a lot. Believability is no longer even a question: it's defenestrated. Is the simpleness worth it?

 

[Claudius Gaius]

A single craft skill is pretty broad. It might be better to use less general craft-category skills and expand what they're good for. For example, you might let people use relevant craft skills to appraise the appropriate sorts of items, to determine if relevant items are enchanted, to bargain over prices with merchants selling such items, and t use enchanted items of the relevant type - thus eliminating the general "use magical device" skill entirely.

 

[Herobizkit]

Here's a random thought re: generalized skill checks. I can't take credit for it - it's an idea ripped from a certain other RPG in the style of d20 Urban Arcana... in the 80's.

For every general skill, you can have the option of choosing a specialty. By choosing a specialty, you reduce your overall check by 2 but increase the check in your specialty by 2.

Example: You have Athleticism as a general skill and you have 4 ranks in it. You want to specialize in Jumping. When making Jump checks, you give a +2 to the roll, but penalize any other actions under Atheticism by 2.