variant skill list (45+ -> 24)

[evilbob]

infinite -> 22

I have updated my OP with a fairly substantial set of changes, mainly based on the feedback from this thread. I've taken UMD out of Arcane, merged Know(history) with the rest of the Social Studies skills and completely smashed Survival. It's now spread over 3 skills, each depending on where you are - underground/inside, outdoors, or another plane. I've also stuck Forgery firmly into the completely overhauleded Craft - which is compressed down to one skill, as per my own posts above. And I added a few tiny things here and there as well; for example, I made Heal better, since it needed something to help it compete.

I've actually taken the entire skill list down to 22. Again: this is a system designed to make things simpler and faster, be accessable, be backward compatible, and make every skill really -worth- something. It gives up a lot of realism in order to streamline the skills and make them more valuable. There are large swaths of things that are lumped together, which may be too much - but it is hoped that it was worth their combined total.

Again, there are still problems, and feedback is appreciated. For one, several skills may need to really be broken out again: it's hard to think about Survival without the Wisdom modifier (although it makes sense under Int as well), Craft is a crazy thing, and History still doesn't seem quite right. But it's worth looking at them under this light as well. Suggestions welcome!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Regarding Survival being Wis based, the current rules allow for skill checks to be based on different stats.. for instance you could Intimidate with Chr....

As to the OP, I use a HR 'Culture' skill very similar to yours above. It also replaces Kn Local and language, broken out into the individual cultures of the setting.

So, for instance, someone with 3 ranks in Ragesian has a good idea of the nations geography, history, heraldry, folklore, and can speak the local language with a bit of an accent.

Ability to speak/write isn't an actual skill check, just a factor of the ranks purchased. There is a Trade language as well as special cultures like Thieves Cant and Druidic.

I know this goes against getting rid of the number of skills, but to me it better represents a multi-lingual world much better than the current 'two elves from completely different continents and cultures can talk to each other' paradigm.


I think this system needs a 'trained/untrained' or talent system to go along side. For instance Legerdemain. Tying ropes is a far cry from picking a lock. Not sure how to implement it tho.

As to the Swim/Climb/Etc.. the best way to show this, IMO, is to divorce movement based activity from the normal pool of skills. I do prefer the HR where swimming is a simple skill check to see how far you are able to move instead of a fraction of the creatures 'normal' move.

 

[evilbob]

Good point on the trained/untrained. I've been wondering about that myself, although when I checked the only skill that didn't perfectly align with the trained/untrained rules from the previous skill set was the one you brought up: Legeremain. That one had 2 trained and 1 untrained. So it became trained.

Further in the spirit of "no really, I want options not restrictions," I almost threw out trained/untrained altogether because it was simply restricting. I don't want to tell players what they can't do; I want them to be able to do whatever they want - but it just may have a really, really good chance of failing. However, it's still a good theory - the idea that some skills require SOME training before you can really -use- them - so I kept it, but just created a penalty: use any skill you want, but if you're untrained using a trained skill, -5. That seems big enough to hurt, but at the same time not so big it's impossible. The guy with the 20 in Dex? Yeah, he's just so good that it doesn't -matter- that he's never been trained how to pick a lock - he can just work it out as good as some guy who has an 8 in Dex and has 1 point of training. Even if I don't keep anything else from this experiment, I'm definitely keeping this idea.

Also, I'd like to point out that while all of Crafting has been reduced to 1 skill, it's also -hard-. I made it trained - one of the only actual changes re: trained/untrained - so your average guy can't just make leather armor or spoons or whatever without some basic training. On the other hand, a level 2 guy with only 10 Int who's maxed it out can take a 10 on his crafting rolls to create armor or clothes or any mundane, normal item. I think it's pretty fair, but again feedback is welcome.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Have you seen Sean Reynolds post on avoiding absolutes? If not check out Fewer Absolute Effects Part 2

Basically he agrees with you {or you agree with him.. }and instead of "you can't do that" its "You can try, but its harder for you"
Being trained avoids the skills "untrained use" penalty that ranges from +5 to +10, depending on the skill. For instance, open lock has an untrained penalty of +5.

 

[MissingDividends]

I love the concept of the thread, and it looks like the implementation is really starting to take form (the majority of the discussion seems to be headed in the right direction, IMO). I think I'll forward this to my next DM.

Almost everything I could think of had already been discussed. One comment though.

Yes, but heal is also the name of the skill previously. Treat Wounds is also kinda close to cure light wounds, which gives the wrong impression since it doesn't really heal any wounds, and "treating" in the name really almost limits the skill from what all it can do (like diagnose poisons and determine cause of death). "First Aid" is really the better name, but it fails the fantasy setting rule. "Triage" doesn't really work for the same reasons as "treat wound." I hear what you're saying, though, and I think there is a better name out there.

Why doesn't "First Aid" fit with the fantasy setting? It seems to be an intuitive enough name that it could be fantasy-appropriate (the skill just covers the knowledge necessary to be the first to aid an injured person).

Another option might be 'medicine' (as in the medical practice).

(Then again, maybe allowing this skill to actually HEAL some freakin' WOUNDS wouldn't be a bad change, either.)

You mean something like "Surgery" or something like "Nursing"?

--MissingDividends

 

[evilbob]

I love the concept of the thread, and it looks like the implementation is really starting to take form (the majority of the discussion seems to be headed in the right direction, IMO). I think I'll forward this to my next DM.

Thanks a lot! Suggestions are still welcome!

Why doesn't "First Aid" fit with the fantasy setting? It seems to be an intuitive enough name that it could be fantasy-appropriate (the skill just covers the knowledge necessary to be the first to aid an injured person).

Well, because "first aid" as a word (at least according to wikipedia) wasn't even invented until 1877. The whole idea of "medicine" is a much more modern concept than the fantasy setting of D&D. Don't get me wrong: we have TONS of anachronisms already (clockwork automatons, anyone?), mix wildly different styles with impunity (ninjas and knights, why not?), and we have LOTS of other stuff that just makes no sense (so now we're fighting dinosaurs... right). But for some reason the word "first aid" sticks out to me worse than many of the existing problems. I guess what I'm saying is: I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to imagine medieval fantasy characters using the word "first aid." It's like calling a castle a "skyscraper" or talking about "science" - it's just too divergent for me to buy.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not married to any of these names (although I do think "legerdemain" was quite clever, if a bit stuffy), and your thoughts are always welcome. I would just like to keep as far away from modern medical terms as possible for "Heal." "Remedy" is the closest thing to a substitute I can find, and that still ignores too much of the "diagnosis" aspect of the skill to really be used (not to mention it still conjures images of Final Fantasy games in my head). And since I actually included a method (dangerous though it might be) to allow the Heal skill to genuinely heal someone in my latest revision, I'm having less and less of a problem with that one.

Feel free to work on "Animal Handling," though.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I have a variant heal skill that actually heals.. but thats not why I poked my head back in.

I was thinking regarding swim and climb.. the cool concept behind the SW SAGA skills was to provide a range of difficulty that the encounter can be designed around without leaving the non-swim focused character out.

As it happens, my group is on its way to experiencing a potentially unfun battle while swimming, and when half the group can barely move... not good.

So, I was thinking to divorce the movement ability from the rest of the skill system.. something like:

{Caveat, I haven't done the detailed number crunching on this.. just a swag }
================
Basics: Movement modes are special skills. Instead of spending skill points, characters gain 1/2 level ranks in each available mode. There are feats that allow a character to specialize in the mode.

Movement is a standard action skill check, with any DC acting as a penalty. The results of the check is the distance moved. In most cases a result less than -5 results in something bad.

If using a mode that is not 'normal movement', you lose your Dex to AC. You can move defensivly, taking a -10 penalty to your check in order to retain your Dex to AC. A mode is 'normal movement' if the RAW grants you a movement speed or you have taken the 'Natural X' feat as described below.

Some creatures with the natural ability for these modes may have movement multipliers or a bonus movement based on their RAW movement speed. {the bonus movement does not allow for traversing more diffucult terrain as a bonus to the skill would, simply adds to any positive result, allowing longer movement as long as the creature is capable of traversing the terrain.} Some creatures with the natural ability for these modes gain the 'Natural X' and/or 'Expert X' feat for free

The Skill Focus feat can be taken against these movement modes, and provides a +5 to the check.

Modes:
-> Climb. DC's are 10 points less than as shown in the PHB. An Untrained penalty of -5 is applied to any DC > 15
A result less than -5 results in a fall.
Feats:
- Natural Climber. You do not incur the Untrained penalty Climbing counts as 'normal movement' for you, allowing the use of Tumbles or Jumps as part of the movement. Special: Rogues and Rangers get this as a 'free' feat at first level.
- Expert Climber, You can make Climb checks as a Move action and may Take 10 on Climb checks even in combat.

-> Swim. DC's are 10 points less than as shown in the PHB. An Untrained penalty of -5 is applied to any DC > 10
A result less than -5 results in going underwater. You sink a number of feet down and swallow water, losing rounds from your ability to hold your breath, equal to your check result.
- Feats:
- Natural Swimmer. You do not incur the Untrained penalty. Climbing counts as 'normal movement' for you, allowing the use of Tumbles or Jumps as part of the movement.
- Expert Swimmer, You can make Swim checks as a Move action and may Take 10 on Swim checks even in combat.


-> Flight. An Untrained penalty of -10 is applied to any DC
A result less than -5 results in a stall. {this requires a listing of DC's for various actions instead of using the manueverability rating method.}
- Feats:
- Natural Flyer, You do not incur the Untrained penalty. Flying counts as 'normal movement' for you, allowing the use of Tumbles or Jumps as part of the movement.
- Expert Flyer, You can make Flight checks as a Move action and may Take 10 on Flight checks even in combat.

===============
Example:
Ranger Bob and Joe Fighter are 10th level and have a STR score of 16 {+3}
Both have a 'skill' in Climb of 5+3 = 8
Both are can easily climb a rough wall or tree, PHB DC 10 = penalty of 0. Both will normally climb anywhere from 10 to 25 feet in a round

When faced with a with a more challenging cliff, PHB DC 20 = penalty trained of 10, untrained 15. Now Bob will be able to continue up the cliff safely, anywhere from 5 to 20 feet per round. Joe will struggle and possibly fall, at best climbing 13 feet.

===============

This will give the option for characters that are better at climbing/swimming/flying while allowing the GM to have an expected range of capability when designing encounters.

A focused character needs to spend 3 feats on it, but they are then the best in class. Bob with Skill focus and Expert Climber could casually climb PHB DC 25 cliff faces {moving a 10' per Move action}

Thoughts? Or should I just ditch the idea?

 

[MissingDividends]

Thanks a lot! Suggestions are still welcome!

Well, the only major "tweak" that occurred to me would be something like the standard perform skill where focus is placed on different things. The mechanics would need some working out (and it may even be headed away from simplicity, but seems to be more logical to thing about), but, using Acrobatics as an example, they could put 2 ranks in acrobatics with a focus in balance, 2 with a focus in tumble, and 1 with a focus in escape artist. Skill checks would work something like (for acrobatics related to balance) d20+ (base acrobatics) (2+2+1)/2 + (balance focused) 2.

Now that I reread that, it definitely seems headed for being even more complicated than the standard system, but does seem to be a more realistic version of synergies. If someone can think of a way to tidy it up, it could definitely work.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Use chirurgery for heal. Technically it is the predecessor for surgery but is different enough to encompass all forms of healing.

 

[MissingDividends]

Use chirurgery for heal. Technically it is the predecessor for surgery but is different enough to encompass all forms of healing.

Interesting term. Looks like the etymology is Old French. Good word, but I think it's a bit too tied to surgical practices.