The most damaging 4th edition attack by Class?

Mongolia Jones · Jul 12, 2008

Hypersmurf said:
Now forget the house rule, and use the Wall as written. Suppose you are standing around minding your own business, and someone casts Wall of Fire so that it intersects your square. You take no immediate damage, but at the start of your turn, you take damage for being in the Wall. If, however, before your turn you are removed from the wall (either someone slides you, or you're granted an out-of-turn move), you take no damage (or, at worst, adjacent damage).

So you might well say, given the RAW Wall of Fire, "It sure does not make sense. Why wouldn't I take damage from a wall of fire appearing around me?"

-Hyp.

Good point H-smurf, but we play wall of fire a little different than how you described above. We added an Attack: Int vs Ref to the power. There is then an attack roll for every creature in the zone for the initial casting. So then the power works just like many of the other zone powers. (this also may have been in the PHB errata as well.)

example:
1. Wizard casts Wall of Fire, makes attack rolls vs any creatures in AoE zone
2. Those that are hit take 3d6+int damage (similar to Nec Web mechanics)
3. Those that are missed take no damage (similar to Nec Web mechanics)
4. From this point on, creatures will take damage if they start or enter the zone on their turn ONLY. (like Nec Web but better since Nec Web only causes damage if you start you turn in the zone, not if you move into it).

We use the same mechanic on Blade Barrier, Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, Fire Storm, and Blood Pulse. (i.e. cause damage once on initial cast and zone damage on creatures turns thereafter)

Other powers like Evard's, and Astral Storm only cause damage on the casters turn, those power are pretty self explanatory anyway.

In the end it all works out pretty good. All "continual" zone damage rolls only happens once per round per target. This balances the powers very nicely and cuts out all the cheese.

Mongolia Jones · Jul 12, 2008

Hypersmurf said:
Well, consider. Under his house rule, ...If you get pushed into a Wall of Fire, but before your turn you are removed from the Wall (either someone slides you, or you're granted an out-of-turn move), you take no damage (or, at worst, adjacent damage).

Correct!

But I can see that it has the potential to disturb many people sensibilities. One could say: "You mean to say that you can get "pushed" into a Wall of Fire and sit there till an ally "pulls" you out and you take absolutely no damage? That makes no sense at all!"

My reply: "Yes, definitely possible!"

And here's how you would envision it...

We all agree that everyone's turns happens at the same time. You're character's 6 second turn is supposed to happen simultaneously with everyone else's 6 second turn. Those that act first due to high initiative rolls act ever so slightly before others with lower initiative rolls. (Note that no one ever acts a full 6 seconds before anyone else, except for in surprise rounds).

So in the case of being pushed/pulled into and out of a Wall of Fire without damage, the combat can be explained as such:
-Guy "pushes/pulls/slides" a kobold into a Wall of Fire
-Ally of kobold catches kobold just at the moment before he is flung into the inferno and "pushes/pulls/slides" kobold away to safety before any harm is caused.

Just like so many things are abstract in DnD, so is combat.

If you can justify an elf with twice the hit points of a Rhino or a Wizard's intelligence score increasing his own armor class, then I'm pretty sure you can justify my Wall of Fire scenario above.

Jasperak · Jul 13, 2008

abstractus ad absurdum Q.E.A

Hypersmurf · Jul 13, 2008

Mongolia Jones said:
So in the case of being pushed/pulled into and out of a Wall of Fire without damage, the combat can be explained as such:
-Guy "pushes/pulls/slides" a kobold into a Wall of Fire
-Ally of kobold catches kobold just at the moment before he is flung into the inferno and "pushes/pulls/slides" kobold away to safety before any harm is caused.

Though what about the Wall of Fire bisecting a room; enemy pushes kobold into a Wall of Fire, ally pushes him out the other side?

It's hard to describe the "rescue" as happening before he's flung in when he passes completely through!

-Hyp.

CountPopeula · Jul 14, 2008

Mongolia Jones said:
The way we play/will play Blood Pulse in our groups (3 games, 3 DMs) is that it only damages the target when the target moves during it's own turn. Pulling/pushing don't cause damage.

How reasonable is that change?

We've pretty much incorporated this change with all the wall spells too. For example, no creature will take damage in a wall of fire if pushed into the zone. A creature will ONLY take damage if it starts it's turn in the zone or if it moves into the zone sometime during it's turn.

This has helped to make all the sustained powers uniform in when they cause damage, either on the caster's turn and/or the target's turn only. It works well to cut out all the cheese.

Eh, I'd be annoyed, and probably loudly. Pushing, pulling, and sliding are part of the tactics of the battle, and pushing, pulling, and sliding into terrain to do damage is part of the game.

Like Cloud of Daggers "Effect: The power’s area is filled with sharp daggers of force. Any creature that enters the area or starts its turn there takes force damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). The cloud remains in place until the end of your next turn. You can dispel it earlier as a minor action."

Pushing an opponent through the space would cause damage, and pushing them into it would cause damage, and then cause damage again when their turn started. I wouldn't call it cheese, I would say it's part of the design of powers that push, pull and slide and their synergy with area abilities.

I think your change underpowers these abilities too much, although the leaving sixteen spaces with every space they move overpowers them. Easy solution? There isn't one, but i don't think either of these are it.

amysrevenge · Jul 14, 2008

CountPopeula said:
Pushing an opponent through the space would cause damage, and pushing them into it would cause damage, and then cause damage again when their turn started. I wouldn't call it cheese, I would say it's part of the design of powers that push, pull and slide and their synergy with area abilities.

I think that the main reason for people's hesitation on this note is that push/pull/slide don't provoke opportunity attacks the way moving normally would (even though there is no explainable reason beyond "game balance" - you'd think you'd be LESS in control of yourself when being manhandled than when moving of your own volition). It seems like the intent is that push/pull/slide have few immediate negative side-effects other than tactical positioning.

Big Mike

Otterscrubber · Jul 14, 2008

Ya, with wall spells in our games you only take damage once per round for a wall spell, it does not matter how many squares of it you enter. Any part of a wall of fire spell is the same "hotness" as any other square and you can only take so much damage per round. Why passing through several squares of fire in a 6 second time frame would be any more damaging than sitting in one square of the same fire for a 6 second time frame does not make any sense to me.

Also, ya, it only happens on your round unless the spell specifically says otherwise. So yes, you could get pull/pushed to safety if you somehow manage to leave the square prior to your turn. I once put my hand on a hot stove, but pulled it away fast enough not to get burned (slightly singed tho). I envision a similar situation to getting pushed into a wall of fire but moved out so fast you effectively didn't take any real damage.

Anthony Jackson · Jul 14, 2008

If you're willing to look at longer duration effects:

Wall of Ice can be made to surround someone, damaging them every turn; at least one square must be destroyed (two squares if Large) to get out. If it takes, say, 3 melee attacks to do 50 damage, that's a total of 12d6 + 3*Int + 6*Enhancement; average 42+24+36 = 102. Sadly, it's not an attack so it doesn't trigger lasting frost. Because it blocks line of sight, teleporting out doesn't seem to be an option for most characters.

Necrotic Web: on average, a creature is immobilized for 1.8 rounds, and will take damage for 1 round more than that (as breaking out is at the end of the round). Thus, we get an average of 2.8 attacks for 4d6+Enhancement (20 points each, so 56) and one attack for 4d6+Int+Enhancement (28) for a total of 84. It gets worse if you hit someone who just broke out with Ray of Frost or another slow effect.

Evard's Black Tentacles does somewhat less damage, but covers a bit more area.

Mongolia Jones · Jul 14, 2008

Hypersmurf said:
Though what about the Wall of Fire bisecting a room; enemy pushes kobold into a Wall of Fire, ally pushes him out the other side?

It's hard to describe the "rescue" as happening before he's flung in when he passes completely through!

-Hyp.

I think you are intelligent enough to come up with a reason. A quick google search of people running through fire (youtube?) unscathed may aid in your reasoning. Plus push/pulls/slides have advantages that normal movement does not.

This, of course, is assuming the kobold's ally can somehow target the kobold in a zone where there is no LoS.

Hypersmurf · Jul 14, 2008

Mongolia Jones said:
I think you are intelligent enough to come up with a reason. A quick google search of people running through fire (youtube?) unscathed may aid in your reasoning.

Sure, but "people running through" is exactly what can't avoid damage under your ruling, since running through is (generally) something you do on your own turn.

This, of course, is assuming the kobold's ally can somehow target the kobold in a zone where there is no LoS.

If it's a ranged power requiring an attack roll, he picks a square and takes a -5. If it's a close or area power requiring an attack roll, he picks a square and doesn't take a -5. If it's a utility power that has a target but no attack roll, he picks a square. And if it's a power that affects an ally without designating him a target, it's automatic.

About the only powers that automatically fail due to broken line of sight are ones that say something like "Each ally in the burst you can see".

-Hyp.

The most damaging 4th edition attack by Class?

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