D&D 5E Why Is The Assassin Rpgue?

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Alright. My standards of comparison, here, will be Swashbuckler and Phantom, with minor reference to Soulknife, as these three subclasses consistently rank high on most folks' lists, without the complexity of the Arcane Trickster.

Phantom 3 grants a small (half Sneak Attack, round up) damage bonus, PB/long. So that means, roughly speaking, the character should get something roughly equivalent to PBxfloor(level/4+1)x3.5, since you gain an extra 1d6 (3.5 average) every other level and this scales half as fast. At third level, this would be 2x1x3.5 = 7. At fifth, when both SA and PB go up, it becomes 3x2x3.5 = 21 average damage, and likewise it jumps rather a lot at every level where PB goes up (42 at level 9, 70 at 13th, and 105 at 17th.) Thus, it seems reasonable to me to grant the Assassin something that gives better up-front damage, but doesn't scale nearly as well.

Swashbuckler 3 grants ways to easily get Sneak Attack without requiring Advantage on the attack roll. This isn't a huge bonus, but it does add a lot of flexibility, and thus gives us some context for useful directions we can explore.

Soulknife 3 doesn't grant any actual damage-boosting features, not really anyway, so it's not particularly relevant.

From this, I propose the following as Assassin 3:

Enshroud​

At third level, when you acquire this subclass, you gain the ability to channel the supernatural power of shadow to walk unseen. When you use this feature, you Enshroud yourself. While Enshrouded, you may Hide even while someone can see you. The first time each round that you make an attack roll against a creature, it may immediately make a Perception check as a free action to attempt to detect your presence. You cease to be Enshrouded if you do not take a Bonus action to maintain it, if more than ten rounds have elapsed since you used this feature, or if a creature's Perception check exceeds the result of your Hide roll. You can use this feature a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all uses of it when you complete a long rest.

Tools of the Trade​

At third level, when you acquire this subclass, select one of the following fighting styles.
Kusarigama: You can manifest a shadowy kusarigama, a utilitarian weapon consisting of a small sickle and a flail-like weight linked by a long chain, with which you have proficiency. The sickle end deals 1d8 piercing damage and has the light, finesse, reach, and special properties. The flail end deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage and has the finesse and special properties. Special (both ends): Only one end of the weapon can attack using the reach property for any attack roll you make. Special (flail end): If you hit a creature within five feet of you, its speed is halved until the start of your next turn unless it makes Dexterity saving throw (DC = 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier). Finally, if at the start of your turn you have not touched your shadowy kusarigama since the end of your previous turn, it disappears, and you can call it to your hands as a free action.
Hidden Blade: If you are wielding a weapon that has light and finesse properties, a blowgun, or a rapier specially prepared for concealment as a sword-cane, gains the following special property. Special: You can conceal this weapon on your person in an appropriate place (e.g. a short sword concealed inside a tall boot, a dagger concealed at your wrist, etc.) So long as you do not currently have a weapon drawn, or have only a sheathed sword-cane in your hands, you can draw any weapon you have concealed on your person as a free action immediately before using the Attack action. If, during your turn, you draw a concealed weapon in this way, you do not need Advantage in order to make use of Sneak Attack, but all other restrictions apply normally.
(Note: A sword-cane costs twice as much as a normal rapier due to its unusual construction. A sheathed sword-cane has the finesse property but not the light property and deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage. A drawn sword-cane behaves exactly like a rapier.)
Kunai Talent: Thrown daggers are especially deadly in your hands. When you make a thrown weapon attack with a weapon that has the light and thrown properties, increase its damage by half your proficiency bonus, rounded up. If it also has the finesse property, then when you make thrown weapon attacks with that weapon, you get a +1 bonus to the attack roll.
Viper's Fang: You gain proficiency with the poisoner's kit. A number of times per day equal to half your proficiency bonus (rounded up), you can spend 10 minutes to use a poisoner's kit to coat a weapon with the finesse property, or a set of blowgun needles, with a virulent, acidic toxin that reacts with air. While the weapon or needles are stowed, the toxin remains inactive. Upon drawing the weapon or loading any of the needles, the toxin is activated. Once activated, it lasts one minute. Whenever you deal damage with a weapon coated in this toxin, it deals an additional 1d6 acid damage. At 11th level, you can use this feature a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus.
(Note, because this toxin is acidic, very few undead creatures are immune to it, and only some resist it.)
Infiltration: You gain proficiency with the disguise kit, or expertise if you already had proficiency. You can use a disguise kit to mimic any person you have studied sufficiently carefully, though you can only imitate their voice if you have heard it. When you attempt to mimic another person, make a Charisma (disguise kit) check. As long as you are only casually observed, others will usually take your disguise as genuine. If someone is within five feet of you or spends more than one minute observing you, they may make a Wisdom (Insight) check; they can only determine that you are disguised if they exceed the result of your Charisma (disguise kit) check.

That's about all I have the energy for writing tonight. I'll think more on it tomorrow.

There is no such thing as a failed (sub)class, only failed players.
I fundamentally disagree. Given WotC is specifically reworking several subclasses--in particular, the Berserker Barbarian, which was one of the worst subclasses in all of 5e and that's saying something--it would seem WotC agrees that there are some failures in there.

In addition, players tend to think that their specialty should mean an enormous advantage compared to other characters who don't have it. Like it or not, this is NOT a design principle of 5e. Everybody wanted an edition where everyone can try everything and have a chance. The flip of the coin is, that the specialized character is only marginally better than the non-specialized, but not tremendously better.
Unfortunately, in my experience, it ends up being the worst of both worlds.

Specialists are only marginally better than the non-specialized, but only specialists are allowed to do whatever the specialization is. You have to specialize just to be marginally good at much of anything.
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
There is no such thing as a failed (sub)class, only failed players.
This is obviously false.
It is deceiving to judge a single ability in a vacuum, better to try and see how that ability adds to the base attack capabilities of the character.

Also, it is quite normal that a player will think "I am an assassin, I a supposed to easily kill anyone I want in one shot". The reality is that if you are a 3rd level Assassin , you're supposed at best to easily take down low-level guards only, certainly not a BBEG.
I’ve never seen anyone suggest this except for people constructing it as a strawman. No assassin player thinks this.
In addition, players tend to think that their specialty should mean an enormous advantage compared to other characters who don't have it. Like it or not, this is NOT a design principle of 5e. Everybody wanted an edition where everyone can try everything and have a chance. The flip of the coin is, that the specialized character is only marginally better than the non-specialized, but not tremendously better.
Even ignoring that this isn’t really true, what’s it got to do with the thread?
Specialists are only marginally better than the non-specialized, but only specialists are allowed to do whatever the specialization is. You have to specialize just to be marginally good at much of anything.
Interesting. My experience is kinda the opposite, ie that literally just proficiency or a decent stat bonus make you competent at any skill, and other specialization are similarly not that siloed.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Interesting. My experience is kinda the opposite, ie that literally just proficiency or a decent stat bonus make you competent at any skill, and other specialization are similarly not that siloed.
You need both a good stat (16, aka +3) and proficiency (+2) to even start to have a good chance at tasks of even moderate difficulty, let alone anything serious. A DC 15 check is nigh impossible for someone with neither (failure 75% of the time), but in my experience that is near the floor of skill DCs most DMs use. It sure as hell doesn't help that 10 is listed as "easy" when, for most characters, they'll have barely more than a 50% chance of passing a so-called "easy" check.

I was genuinely shocked by the number of single-digit save and skill DCs in Baldur's Gate 3. It was so refreshing! You actually have a bloody chance now, instead of failure after failure at anything other than your core schtick.

And that's on top of the thing I noted in the other thread, where for some reason I still can't fathom, 5e DMs (IME) consistently take the most restrictive, "anything not explicitly defined is forbidden" attitude with skills. The text doesn't even support that reading, and yet that is how it gets used. It baffles me.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
You need both a good stat (16, aka +3) and proficiency (+2) to even start to have a good chance at tasks of even moderate difficulty, let alone anything serious. A DC 15 check is nigh impossible for someone with neither (failure 75% of the time), but in my experience that is near the floor of skill DCs most DMs use. It sure as hell doesn't help that 10 is listed as "easy" when, for most characters, they'll have barely more than a 50% chance of passing a so-called "easy" check.
14 and proficiency hit DC 15 50%, DC 10 is 75%, most DCs I’ve seen for items, PC abilities at lower levels, and DCs listed in adventures, are between the two.
I was genuinely shocked by the number of single-digit save and skill DCs in Baldur's Gate 3. It was so refreshing! You actually have a bloody chance now, instead of failure after failure at anything other than your core schtick.

And that's on top of the thing I noted in the other thread, where for some reason I still can't fathom, 5e DMs (IME) consistently take the most restrictive, "anything not explicitly defined is forbidden" attitude with skills. The text doesn't even support that reading, and yet that is how it gets used. It baffles me.
Yeah I’ve been fighting that mentality since my group started playing together, at the beginning of Star Wars Saga Edition. At least there and in 4e the skills are very specifically described, but still.
 


EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
14 and proficiency hit DC 15 50%, DC 10 is 75%, most DCs I’ve seen for items, PC abilities at lower levels, and DCs listed in adventures, are between the two.
Okay. So it's 55% with a +3 and proficiency. That means the second-most talented possible character you can start with, apart from cheesy Custom Lineage stuff + Expertise, is going to fail an allegedly "Medium" difficulty check almost half the time. Even if you're a Rogue with a cheesy Custom Lineage to start at 18 with Expertise, so literally THE best a person can possibly be, you still have at most +8, meaning that you still fail that "Medium" DC 15 almost a third of the time (6/20 = 30%). A character that isn't anywhere near such specialty has no chance with an allegedly "Medium" check—but that's where 5e typically puts checks for its adventures, from everything I have seen and been told.

The problem really is that the game tells folks "Medium" is 15, which most characters will be garbage at. Since most skills don't have Proficiency for most characters, and most skills won't be using your 14+ stats, meaning you fail "Medium" checks around two thirds of the time. If all you have is +1 to the roll, you fail a DC 15 check 65% of the time. I don't call "most characters would fail this check 2/3 of the time" a "Medium" difficulty check.

But because it is "Medium," it's where everyone starts. You wouldn't throw an easy check at the player, would you? That would be pointless! :rolleyes:

Add in that most characters never reach double digit levels, so the biggest proficiency bonus you'll see is +4...

Yeah I’ve been fighting that mentality since my group started playing together, at the beginning of Star Wars Saga Edition. At least there and in 4e the skills are very specifically described, but still.
The irony for me is, although I wish the similarity were stronger, the actual descriptions of skills and the general slate thereof more resembles 4e than 3e. It's one of the very few areas where you can actually see real 4e-like design if you squint, rather than merely things that have a thin candy coating of 4e-likeness while being actually completely differenr underneath.

And you'll note, I raised the exact same problem back then, too! Skills should, emphasis on should, be more like 4e than 3e in how they are used and run. They are not, and I truly cannot explain why. Nobody seems to like them being so narrow and anemic. But they keep getting run that way at so many tables.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Okay. So it's 55% with a +3 and proficiency. That means the second-most talented possible character you can start with, apart from cheesy Custom Lineage stuff + Expertise, is going to fail an allegedly "Medium" difficulty check almost half the time. Even if you're a Rogue with a cheesy Custom Lineage to start at 18 with Expertise, so literally THE best a person can possibly be, you still have at most +8, meaning that you still fail that "Medium" DC 15 almost a third of the time (6/20 = 30%). A character that isn't anywhere near such specialty has no chance with an allegedly "Medium" check—but that's where 5e typically puts checks for its adventures, from everything I have seen and been told.

The problem really is that the game tells folks "Medium" is 15, which most characters will be garbage at. Since most skills don't have Proficiency for most characters, and most skills won't be using your 14+ stats, meaning you fail "Medium" checks around two thirds of the time. If all you have is +1 to the roll, you fail a DC 15 check 65% of the time. I don't call "most characters would fail this check 2/3 of the time" a "Medium" difficulty check.

But because it is "Medium," it's where everyone starts. You wouldn't throw an easy check at the player, would you? That would be pointless! :rolleyes:

Add in that most characters never reach double digit levels, so the biggest proficiency bonus you'll see is +4...
+2 and proficiency is fine, one or the other can get it done with help or favorable circumstances, and easy stuff is still well within reach. Level 5 and pb bumps up to 3. And truly easy stuff shouldn’t even involve a roll, especially for a proficient character.
The irony for me is, although I wish the similarity were stronger, the actual descriptions of skills and the general slate thereof more resembles 4e than 3e. It's one of the very few areas where you can actually see real 4e-like design if you squint, rather than merely things that have a thin candy coating of 4e-likeness while being actually completely differenr underneath.

And you'll note, I raised the exact same problem back then, too! Skills should, emphasis on should, be more like 4e than 3e in how they are used and run. They are not, and I truly cannot explain why. Nobody seems to like them being so narrow and anemic. But they keep getting run that way at so many tables.
People that run 5e skills like 3.5 just…I don’t even get how?? The book literally doesn’t tell you what all a skill can do, just what sorts of tasks is generally applies to.

But yeah 4e did skills very well.

My own game down them very differently, but that’s because it’s a game with a unified resolution system meant to be played without opening the book, so each skill has 1-2 paragraphs of descriptions of things one might do with it, and that’s it. All the crunch lives in action resolution. Also there are about 30 skills with 3 specializations each. You aren’t meant to try to memorize all of them, they’re front page on your character sheet for a reason.

But in D&D, I really wish they’d go back to more 4e style skills with clean brief descriptions and examples that apply to each of the three pillars for each skill.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
And truly easy stuff shouldn’t even involve a roll, especially for a proficient character.
That's the exact problem. It means that, any time it's even vaguely "well...this should require SOME kind of check..." it immediately defaults to Medium. Meaning, as soon as you actually need skill rolls, you need to be a specialist just to have a modicum of success, let alone actually consistent success.

I just think it's stupid that the best possible expert fails around a quarter to a third of the time on tasks that are only moderately challenging.

+2 and proficiency is fine, one or the other can get it done with help or favorable circumstances, and easy stuff is still well within reach.
I have yet to see favorable circumstances apply to players. Maybe--if you have a truly excellent plan and a thorough explanation of exactly how impressive your effort is--maybe you'll be graced with Advantage. That's about it. I haven't seen DMs so tight-fisted with bonuses/benefits/favorable circumstances since I played Labyrinth Lord.

And, for the record? If you're rolling at +2, even with Advantage, you still fail more than a third of the time (36%, to be precise.) Even if the DM is outright breaking the rules and adding the prior-edition DM's Best Friend (+2 for a favorable situation on top of Advantage), you're still failing that "Medium" check 25% of the time!
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Continuing my Assassin subclass rewrite, let's look at the comparison subclasses at level 9.

Phantom gets a TON of extra uses of their Wails of the Grave power. Like...it effectively becomes unlimited, so long as they're able to take a reaction most of the time. Keep one on hand for the Con saving throw benefit, and burn through the others for a highly consistent supply of free DPR. Definitely don't feel bad about making Assassin 3 offer good to great damage now--the (PB)(PB-1)*3.5 thing is now a floor of damage per day, not a ceiling.

Soulknife gets a cool teleport utility effect, and a "damage by way of accuracy" effect. With AC comparatively lower than it was in past editions, getting anywhere between +1d6 and +1d12 to hit any time you miss is huge--doubly so when Rogues make few but powerful attacks. It would seem level 9 is when other subclasses generally get their damage boost, Assassin just got it earlier. I see this as a good reason to make 9 a "mostly utility, but maybe also some damage" level.

Swashbuckler becomes actually almost kinda-sorta-vaguely a 4e Defender, which is...unusual. Fits with the Swashbuckler's relatively defensive bent, and thus not a great point of comparison. Still, it's a strong defensive tool, and as far as I can tell, neither this nor the non-hostile variant come with any downsides. They aren't magical, can't be counterspelled, don't make the target hostile after use, and don't expend any resources. The only negative is that the combat version is a full Action, so you give up doing much of anything else that turn--though I suppose running to the maximum range of the effect would be a great way to dodge-tank.

By comparison, Assassin is...I mean this is a ribbon. It's a neat ribbon; it's a ribbon that could have many applications in very specific types of campaign. But it's a ribbon nonetheless. That said, I don't really want to give that much of a damage boost here, and would prefer to simply expand the utility. Thus, I am leaving the Infiltration Expertise as it is, other than to have it synergize with the Infiltration "fighting" style above (since...well, it should.) I will instead add a movement feature.

Assassin 9​

Infiltration Expertise​

Starting at 9th level, you can unfailingly create false identities for yourself. You must spend seven days and 25 gp to establish the history, profession, and affiliations for an identity. You can't establish an identity that belongs to someone else. For example, you might acquire appropriate clothing, letters of introduction, and official-looking certification to establish yourself as a member of a trading house from a remote city so you can insinuate yourself into the company of other wealthy merchants.
Thereafter, if you adopt the new identity as a disguise, other creatures believe you to be that person until given an obvious reason not to.
If you also possess the Infiltration fighting style, you need only spend three days to develop this disguise, and you may develop one such disguise in any 7-day period without paying gold pieces due to your superior training and preparation. If it has been less than seven full days since the last time you created such a disguise, you must pay the 25 gp as usual.

Shadowstep​

If at the start of your turn, you are Enshrouded and no creature adjacent to you is hostile, instead of physically walking from one location to another, you may teleport a distance up to to your speed. If the only action you took on your previous turn was to initiate or continue your Shroud, you can instead teleport a distance up to twice your speed.

There. A solid and extremely useful teleport, akin to what the Shadow Monk can do, but linked into the class's class features. Also, a boost for anyone who gave up bonus combat options in order to go for the "deep cover operative" angle.

Looking ahead, definitely intending to give the Assassin a combat boost at 13th, because everyone else has meaningfully grown in combat options, while the Assassin, literally the subclass most focused on killing people, still hasn't gotten any better conbat features. Impostor isn't a bad feature, but it should be accompanied by some better combat effects for the subclass literally about un-aliving people.
 
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