Pathfinder on the bookstore shelves? Forked Thread: The 3.5 renaissance!

joethelawyer · Mar 11, 2009

Wulf Ratbane said:
4e will outperform 3e/Pathfinder-- simply on the basis of 4e being available in Barnes and Noble-- in the same way that mass market CDs sitting on the shelf in Wal-Mart have an advantage over mp3s and other new media forms of self-publishing.

I was just thinking about this last night. I was at a large Borders bookstore, and then went to a decent sized Barnes and Noble. The B&N didn't have any Pathfinder books, but had all the books for 4e. The Borders had a surprisingly large selection of various RPG's, and exactly one Pathfinder book, the campaign setting one for Golarion.

I agree with the point someone made in the forked-from thread that CURRENTLY the best way to get new players into a particular system is to game with them in that system. However there is still an aspect to getting new players to your game which involves basic marketing---getting the books on the chain stores' bookshelves in such quantity and with such a display presence that people stop to look at them, and hopefully pick them up.

Call me crazy, but I'm one of the nutjobs that thinks that Pathfinder in 5 years can have a bigger active gamer base than D&D 4.x or 5.x, if they play their cards right. A lot of that assumption depends on how I think Hasbro/WOTC will play its cards, granted, but if they fold on the tabletop RPG market, as I think they will, Pathfinder could potentially take up the lionsshare of the market if they set themselves up with enough of a presence now.

I think that beyond producing the great products they currently make, PF needs to more aggressively get themselves into the big chain stores and hobby shops. If it has enough shelf space, people are more lilely to stop and look just to see what it is that has its own standalone spinning rack/3 blinged-out devoted shelves.

If any Paizo folks are reading this thread, are you guys doing anything to get more of a presence at these places? Is it part of the gameplan?

Jack99 · Mar 11, 2009

¨Call me crazy, but I'm one of the nutjobs that thinks that Pathfinder in 5 years can have a bigger active gamer base than D&D 4.x or 5.x, if they play their cards right. A lot of that assumption depends on how I think Hasbro/WOTC will play its cards, granted, but if they fold on the tabletop RPG market, as I think they will, Pathfinder could potentially take up the lionsshare of the market if they set themselves up with enough of a presence now.

Please pass along whatever you are smoking.

thecasualoblivion · Mar 11, 2009

Major bookstores focus on names that sell. Names like Dungeons and Dragons, Star Wars, Warhammer, Warcraft, and to a lesser extent White Wolf. A game named Pathfinder has an insurmountable disadvantage, as it isn't going to become a bigger name than Dungeons and Dragons in the popular consciousness.

Remathilis · Mar 11, 2009

Sounds like wishful thinking.

I seriously doubt 4e will die a death on the vine and C&C/Pathfinder/Trued20/OSIRIC/S&W/The Ghost of Gary Gygax Presents AD&D 1e reprinted (with errata!) will become the One True RPG.

First off if D&D dies, the next in line WON'T be a d20 clone, it will be White Wolf. I don't have numbers, but I'm pretty sure the Worlds of Darkness line (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Exalted) outsells nearly and d20 OGL book.

Second, D&D won't die unless it sales fall to 1997 levels and Hasbro/WotC bungles things as bad as TSR did. The D&D brand kept TSR afloat long after TSR should have died, and I don't foresee anything nearly as bad as that coming from WotC, no matter what you think of 4e.

joethelawyer · Mar 11, 2009

Jack99 said:
Please pass along whatever you are smoking.

I know, I know, it sounds crazy, but I think it can happen if WOTC gets out of the tabletop RPG market, like I have a gut feeling will happen. All Paizo needs to do is get enough market presence now to pick up the marketshare later.

Shroomy · Mar 11, 2009

I don't know, Paizo's business model is built around subscriptions and their web store. The book and hobby trade always seemed secondary to me.

thecasualoblivion · Mar 11, 2009

I can't help but be a little annoyed by this thread, which muses wishfully at the ascension of a game liked by the OP made possible by the death of the game I like and play.

Dice4Hire · Mar 11, 2009

Well, there re a lot of Paizo-philes on the board. The pluses of Paizo is that they are a dedicated, very innovative game company, the minus is hat they are, for some reason, intent on making some horrendous hybrid that is neither 3.5 or their own system.

I just do not see Paizo being the next big thing, especially in mainline bookstores. WOTC is not going to stop selling physical books. They wantto make money online in addition ot physical books, but I don't see them moving totally online. I cannot imagine that their survey and customer research would say that is a viable option.

I mean, look at the continued opposition to DDI right here on the boards. Most polls I have seen suggest that a maximum of 33% of us at this board subscribe to DDI in one form or another. And I would say that 90%+ of us are willing to spend good money on our hobby.

That says a lot, I think.

Henry · Mar 12, 2009

I'm a strong supporter of the OGL and all Paizo is doing with it, but I'm personally unhappy with the design work I've seen for it. What I've seen makes it MORE complex than what it would be replacing, not less, making it a preferable choice for gamers who want that extra layer of "fiddly bits" ("fiddly bits" is a little derogatory, but I can't think of a better term for all the extra minutiae of multiclassing, the extra feats, the extra class powers, the extra rules, the enhanced combat rules, etc. that Pathfinder has) but it doesn't strike me as a good choice for either me, or for new players who want something for just breaking out the books and playing for a few hours.

If it wants to be a big market, I would think it would have to capture that "gateway" appeal - otherwise, it would be niche, even more niche than D&D has been over the past eight years.

From Paizo's perspective, they don't have to "win the D&D war" to be a hit, but I'm just saying from Joe's hypothesis of "becoming market leader", I don't think the game system's design itself has that universal appeal needed for it. Heck, I'm not sure D&D does.

joethelawyer · Mar 12, 2009

thecasualoblivion said:
Major bookstores focus on names that sell. Names like Dungeons and Dragons, Star Wars, Warhammer, Warcraft, and to a lesser extent White Wolf. A game named Pathfinder has an insurmountable disadvantage, as it isn't going to become a bigger name than Dungeons and Dragons in the popular consciousness.

This I agree with, partially. Dungeons and Dragons, being the first, and having a lot of early notoriety, made its own brand name from nothing, as well as creating an industry. Star Wars RPG derives marketshare primarily (at least initially) from the Star Wars franchise. Warcraft gets its name brand recognition from the computer game.

But look at White Wolf and Warhammer. They have an established industry name, created from nothing. There is nothing inherent in the name itself that lets you know what products they produce. I may be wrong here, never having played either system, but I think White Wolf is mostly a Live Action RPG, and Warhammer is mostly a tabletop miniatures war strategy game, right? I know there is a warhammer FRPG now, but I don't think it has anywhere near the marketshare in the tabletop rpg market that d20 based games have.

Since, not counting 4e, the d20 based games have the lions share of the tabletop RPG market, it seems natural to assume that a d20 based game will move to fill in the gap that WOTC's exit from the tabletop rpg market would open up.

That being said, and given the fact that other companies have created name brand recognition out of nothing, I think Pathfinder can do it if they get a bigger presence in stores now.

just my opinion...