So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats

I think that this is even greater problem than Expertise. Let's see how this look:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4735419-post1.html

So we can see that our NADs are terribly designed. When PHB2 comes out we see some fixes to this problem. Paragon Defenses gives +1 to all NADs (it's feat bonus). On epic we got Robust Defenses (+2 feat bonus to all NADs) and Epic For/Will/Ref (+4 to single defense).

So if you look at the math crunch it is clear that this feats are the same math fix like Expertise. What's more important I think that they are more problematic than Expertise and more needed.

One of your NADs can be auto-hitet at epic! Your middle hitted on 5-6 on die. Even you best and optimized NAD will be hiteted on 8-9! That's big problem and I wonder why there's no post about that. So you probably will need to take Paragon Defenses (or one or two of this feats: Iron Will, Lighting Reflex, Great Fortitude at paragon. Later on epic you will definitly take Robust Defenses couse this feat is just great. +2 to all NADs is superior. Then you will probably need take one Epic F/R/W feat to you lowest NAD and maybe second for you middle NAD. That will use another 2-3 feats for you character.

I just really hope that WotC will not give us plenty more "must-have" feats, to make the math works, couse this will make the characters so boring and predictable.

I'm inclined to agree. A one-feat tax to fix attack issues is bearable (and if WotC claims this is not a fix then obviously expertise is extremely overpowered). A 4 feat tax to fix defenses is just ludicrous. Certainly there are many powers that can improve our defenses and reduce enemy attacks (I think every class has some tbh). And I am fairly certain they more than make up for monster abilities and still come out as a net gain for the party. But unlike the delta between monster attack/PC attack and even monster AC/PC AC for most classes, the one on NADs is far broader. I would expect that my primary NAD will get hit less as I level, my secondary will stay about the same throughout the levels and my tertiary will get hit somewhat more. But the changes to hit chance should be about 2-3 points at most, not 4-5. I think 4-5 is just not fun.

The thing is, this does not affect just players, it affects the group. When the leader or even the defender uses up a high level power to save a striker from an attack, he should almost always manage to do just so. If the shaman uses up his Fate Weaver's Shield and you still end up getting hit on a roll of 12, this devalues that power to the Shaman as well. A leader should always have the feeling that he can save his teammates if he uses up his stronger resources.

Your weak FRW defense gets much worse over time losing 7 points over 29 levels, with your stronger two FRW defenses (assuming you spread ability boosts to 2 stats that boost different saves) losing 4, just like to hit. In general, losing FRW is more bearable than to-hit in that a large proportion of attacks go against AC, but pre-PH II losing 7 points on your weakest FRW puts you at "often get hit on a 2+, even if you took the appropriate Great Fortitude type feat."

Another thing that's not mentioned as much in these discussions is that your FRW defenses tend to be easier for monsters to hit than AC from the get-go. This is because monsters average about 1.5 less on attacks vs. FRW than vs. AC, (statistics from kerbarian's excellent thread, here), but AC tends to be 2-4 points higher than FRW for starting characters (sometimes even more- Plate and Shield Paladins, for example).

However, it doesn't seem like FRW attacks are weaker than AC attacks to compensate for being more accurate; FRW attacks inflict more status conditions, among other things. So having PCs lose that many points on non-AC defenses can be quite problematic against monsters with very strong FRW attacks (think Bodak Reavers). A further downside to PH II's fix is that it's almost entirely in the form of epic feats, so level 20 PCs are in just as much trouble against the Bodak Reavers as they were before, but then they get a major jump in power when they hit epic.

Karinsdad's house rule, which I think is very clever, was to give +1 to hit and to FRW defenses at levels 5/15/25, and to also change it so that at levels 4,8,14,18,24,28, characters get +1 to three ability scores, not two ability scores.

You could even give characters +1 to all defenses (as before, but include AC) at levels 5/15/25 instead, remove Masterwork Light Armors, scale down Masterwork Heavy Armors by 2 points of AC over 29 levels, and end up with all of a character's main attributes scaling at the same rate (with only the Masterwork Heavy Armor fix required as a specific kludge).

Then you can ban the PH II Expertise feats and most of the PH II FRW increasing feats as well, since they're not needed for the game to scale appropriately.

Elric all what you ares saying is true. The completly math crunch was in first post and here's the link again: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4735419-post1.html

Your optin how to fix it is ok, and was almost the same as mine. But. I considered that, giving feats for free is much simpler than tha giving flat bonuses at given level and banning feats. Anyway, the problem is real and we need to make a soltuion for this quick.

Bayuer said:

Elric all what you ares saying is true. The completly math crunch was in first post and here's the link again: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4735419-post1.html

Your optin how to fix it is ok, and was almost the same as mine. But. I considered that, giving feats for free is much simpler than tha giving flat bonuses at given level and banning feats. Anyway, the problem is real and we need to make a soltuion for this quick.

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I think the reverse is true: giving set bonuses at certain levels is simpler in general than using newfangled feats to try to fix the math. You're already getting a +1 bonus on even levels, so now you have to add a few more +1s over your character's lifetime (though these +1s don't add to initiative/skills, even under my proposal above). However, I can see how adding (free) existing feats can be easier with something like WotC's Character builder than modifying the numbers directly.

As I said in your other thread, the Expertise feats are not a good way to give characters a bonus to hit. Even giving every character an Expertise feat for free at level 5 as you suggest in your other thread doesn't do the trick. Problems include: it doesn't apply to powers like a Dragonborn's Breath, characters with both an implement and weapon face a feat tax (and a character like a Swordmage-multiclass wizard-Wizard of the Spiral Tower faces an even larger tax). You could give every character three free Expertise feats at level 5; that would solve all "feat tax" problems, but it's rather awkward.

To get a smooth progression on FRW using free feats, you're going to need to give out a lot of free feats at different levels. Just giving characters epic feats from PH II for free at level 21 isn't going to cut it, and neither is free Paragon Defenses at level 11, plus free Robust Defenses/one Epic X feat at epic, as you suggest in the other thread. You'll end up with a huge spike in character power at level 21 from the free feats (and characters get the ability to take further Epic X feats), when you should be aiming for a more gradual progression.

Mmm I think having high NADs is choice among many. There are other ways to defend yourself, depending on your build.
For example, a Battlerager/Dreadnought wouldn't want to spend feats on defenses, since he'd have so many hps he wouldn't have to worry much about damage; dreadnought would take care of the saves, and a couple well-picked items/feats can prevent him being dazed/stunned/dominated.

Atanatotatos said:

Mmm I think having high NADs is choice among many. There are other ways to defend yourself, depending on your build.
For example, a Battlerager/Dreadnought wouldn't want to spend feats on defenses, since he'd have so many hps he wouldn't have to worry much about damage; dreadnought would take care of the saves, and a couple well-picked items/feats can prevent him being dazed/stunned/dominated.

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So? One paragon path and now the warden and that's it. Are you saying that fact that this option egzist, autihiting one of you NADs with monster attack is ok? Even Dreadnought can't take damage to get the off dominated/stunned effect, so popular at epic level, where the problem is very huge.

@Elric
Well you could give Epic F/R/W feat for free at lower level. Lets say, 15?

I'm going to have to agree with Atanatotatos (does that rhyme with potatatoes? .

IMHO you guys are thinking about the whole game the wrong way (and I don't mean to use 'wrong' to mean 'bad', just "wrong from my perspective"). Characters should be all about choice. 4e has already eaten away a LOT in terms of choices by the whole 'treadmill' approach to power. Players should be able to choose between high NADs, high AC, high to-hit, etc. You want to give them everything and make every character mathematically perfectly identical to every other one. Why not just make a rule that says "everyone has AC X F/R/W Y of N starting and it increases by M per level" and just make armor etc fluff? It seems to me that's basically what you're trying to do.

Instead just give the players control of their characters! If they want to spend all their feats on having high NADs then that is their choice. If they don't, then they can do other interesting things, like have better skills or some role-playing oriented feature added to their characters. You guys do remember role-playing don't you? lol. Sometimes I wonder! It is like some combat related number is the only thing that matters in the game anymore. Pick monsters and scale encounter difficulty to match the choices the players make instead of shoehorning them into a specific set of numbers just for the sake of the fact that it means they can take on a specific level of delve. If all your players want to do is fight, they WILL take the feats that will make them excell at that, and that is absolutely fine. If they don't, then they'll have a bit weaker defenses and need to pick and choose which fights to fight and which ones to RP their way through or around (which is usually more challenging overall).

I know I'm going to get a storm of "but you just don't understand, the numbers are broken" responses to this, complete with the specific example of such and such at thus and such level math and all the usual "feat taxes are evil". Meh. So it goes. I think all of that is missing the point.

Sure there is going to be a power discontinuity between level 20 and 21 and between 10 and 11 too, but that was pretty much baked into the game when they decided to use tiers for controlling access to feats and having PP and ED tack onto your character at a fixed level. Maybe it makes the game system slightly imperfect in some sense, but so what if the PCs will get toasted by bodaks and 20th and they can wipe the floor with them at 21st? Use that as a plot tool! Players are smart. They can read the books and do the math just as well as the DM can. If there is an issue where they may blunder in where they shouldn't go yet, then work some kind of 'test' into the structure of the adventure that will clue them to that or even push them onto a short side adventure to get the required XP. Or just work in a quest that triggers in the appropriate place and levels them up.

Also it is pretty easy to throw PCs a few 1 shot bonuses when needed. Terrain that buffs NADs (activated by solving a skill challenge or something maybe), etc.

Of course it is your game, and I don't really honestly mean this post to put down other people's points of view, just to point out that it isn't the only way to look at it by a long shot. Maybe people are too wrapped up in these numbers. The numbers should be your helpers, not something you have to wrestle with. Hope this perspective is at least interesting. Now, go on with your tweaking and have fun

Instead just give the players control of their characters! If they want to spend all their feats on having high NADs then that is their choice. If they don't, then they can do other interesting things, like have better skills or some role-playing oriented feature added to their characters. You guys do remember role-playing don't you?

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So what does roleplaying have to do with regards to creating a mechanically viable character? It is not as though by doing so, I am gimping my ability to roleplay my PC in any way.

If anything, an unoptimized PC will actually hinder my ability to roleplay, since he may not be capable of accomplishing what his fluff would otherwise suggest.

Nor can one roleplay if he is dead. The most beautifully roleplayed PC is just another lawn ornament if he fails all 3 saves against the medusa. And it is not the best thought out fluff which saves you from being putty at the hands of a dragon, but cold hard stats.

AbdulAlhazred said:

If they want to spend all their feats on having high NADs then that is their choice. If they don't, then they can do other interesting things, like have better skills or some role-playing oriented feature added to their characters. You guys do remember role-playing don't you? lol. Sometimes I wonder!

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High? Making the NADs hittable at 50% when you spend all this feats is for you a choice? I will say. LOL! If this feats will give you choice to make them better than average I could agree with you, but... If you don't take this feats your character will be too easy target for monsters. Hitting you on 5 is bad. Hitting you on 2 is... Your opinion is based too much on personal feelings, not facts.

Anyway I'm a pure role player. But I don't see any facts in this. Flaw can be done as DMG/PC want. But the math is still very bad. All this feats are still must have and even when you feel katharsis when bodak hits you FOR when he roll 3 on die, it's doesent prove anything.

@Elric.
Well maybe adding +1 on 5,15,25 lvl to attack and defenses will not be so bad...
When you will change Weapon Focus to just +1 flat bonus or just ban it from the game. And the other feats will be stil avalible, the game will have more sense.