whats a neutronium golem's real CR?
Somewhere between 500 and 1000 depending on the optimization of the party.
The NG's problem is that by forcing that obnoxious Strength check (which requires something like 700 str), it throws its CR way out of line, as none of its other abilities require even close to that kind of power to overcome. Not to mention, a being who could actually make that check would be able to overkill the NG a thousand times over by flicking it thanks to VSCs.
None of its other abilities really even come into play against an Eternal enemy. DR 1500/-- is worthless. Fast Healing 1500 out of... 1.5 millions HP. Right. The DCs for Gravitic Aura aren't out of line for a powerful Sidereal to make reliably. 62d1000 Divine Fire damage per round is...okay I guess, for subduing Sidereals, but 620d1000 might actually make an Eternal notice the thing (which at that CR ought to be the target). Immunity to magic is blah, wasn't even much of a problem at low levels. Pulsed X-ray is...really it's only decent form of attack. And its Death Throes...even 200 damage isn't enough to cripple an Eternal's ability scores.
Anyway, if a party has things like Abrogate and 7th/8th/9th sense (which they should at this point!) the thing is kind of a joke.
Holistically, it probably SHOULD be around CR 900 or so, powerful enough to give even parties of Demiurge pause. But to do that, in my opinion, it would need a lot of work. (I'd give it 1,000 HD or so, infinite Fast Healing, DR 1/10th or so, and maybe fiddle with its offenses if the HD boost didn't buff them enough.)
But that's just my take on it. Pretty sure Paradox has had his party actually fight them.
The NG's problem is that by forcing that obnoxious Strength check (which requires something like 700 str), it throws its CR way out of line, as none of its other abilities require even close to that kind of power to overcome. Not to mention, a being who could actually make that check would be able to overkill the NG a thousand times over by flicking it thanks to VSCs.
None of its other abilities really even come into play against an Eternal enemy. DR 1500/-- is worthless. Fast Healing 1500 out of... 1.5 millions HP. Right. The DCs for Gravitic Aura aren't out of line for a powerful Sidereal to make reliably. 62d1000 Divine Fire damage per round is...okay I guess, for subduing Sidereals, but 620d1000 might actually make an Eternal notice the thing (which at that CR ought to be the target). Immunity to magic is blah, wasn't even much of a problem at low levels. Pulsed X-ray is...really it's only decent form of attack. And its Death Throes...even 200 damage isn't enough to cripple an Eternal's ability scores.
Anyway, if a party has things like Abrogate and 7th/8th/9th sense (which they should at this point!) the thing is kind of a joke.
Holistically, it probably SHOULD be around CR 900 or so, powerful enough to give even parties of Demiurge pause. But to do that, in my opinion, it would need a lot of work. (I'd give it 1,000 HD or so, infinite Fast Healing, DR 1/10th or so, and maybe fiddle with its offenses if the HD boost didn't buff them enough.)
But that's just my take on it. Pretty sure Paradox has had his party actually fight them.
Upper_Krust
Hero
Howdy Yqatuba mate! 
...and Merry Xmas everyone!
I think I had it properly pegged in around the CR 750 mark about a year after the Bestiary's release.
In fairness its a fairly badly designed monster from the perspective of what you can and cannot do with regards Demiurges and Time Lords...as neatly illustrated by Belzamus.
These sorts of monsters not only should be min/maxed, but its virtually a necessity at their level.
So you could probably even drop it down from its CR 750 a bit more.
...and Merry Xmas everyone!
Yqatuba said:
I think I had it properly pegged in around the CR 750 mark about a year after the Bestiary's release.
In fairness its a fairly badly designed monster from the perspective of what you can and cannot do with regards Demiurges and Time Lords...as neatly illustrated by Belzamus.
These sorts of monsters not only should be min/maxed, but its virtually a necessity at their level.
So you could probably even drop it down from its CR 750 a bit more.
Slight correction: one of my parties fought one Neutronium Golem. And the problems you mentioned indeed came into play, though not Abrogate (since the only party member who had it needed to stay well away from the fight due to having low enough hit points for the Pulsed X-Ray and Death Throes to be a credible threat to him). But basically, the two party fighters were teleported in right next to it (more or less- both have Reaches, at their maximum size, putting them outside its Gravitic Aura) and one-rounded it. In fact, either one of them probably could have soloed it if he had to.
The party was careful to scout the golem and in particular its abilities, well in advance of actually fighting it. They pretty much always are- the only monsters which I can surprise them with (powers-wise) are monsters that have some sort of immunity to divination. And in cases like that, the party typically proceeds with extreme caution and maximized defenses (such that little or nothing gets through, and even if it does they Seventh Sense it so it doesn't count).
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The relevant question for this thread would be what level they were at the time they fought the golem; that I honestly don't remember precisely. It was probably something in the range of ECL 600 or so. Of course, their divine ranks and templates took up a good portion of that; their actual hit dice would have been in the range of 450-500 somewhere.
AncalagonSam
Villager
can someone send me the stat block for the golem? and what's abrogate?
Upper_Krust
Hero
Howdy AncalagonSam!
Well the statblock is in the Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary.
Abrogate is a cosmic ability (listed in the Immortals Handbook: Ascension) which allows you to negate the opponent's strongest ability.
Well the statblock is in the Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary.
Abrogate is a cosmic ability (listed in the Immortals Handbook: Ascension) which allows you to negate the opponent's strongest ability.
Beefermatic
Hero
With the vsc j curve left rules as written, they're not very high, a First One could body one easily. High level Sidereals simply have too many tools in their belt to effectively be able to be beaten by one so I'd have to put their CR around 250-350 max.
Even with my reworking of the str damage output to get the j curve under control they're just not able to compete effectively at a certain point, they're too straightforward to blunt and too predictable.
They're world ending threats to be sure and any other monster in the IH Bestiary besides the Wormhole Dragon couldn't hope to fight this thing much less win but a properly leveled Sidereal with the right abilities I don't think could lose to it tbh, to say nothing about a demiurge or higher being.
Even with my reworking of the str damage output to get the j curve under control they're just not able to compete effectively at a certain point, they're too straightforward to blunt and too predictable.
They're world ending threats to be sure and any other monster in the IH Bestiary besides the Wormhole Dragon couldn't hope to fight this thing much less win but a properly leveled Sidereal with the right abilities I don't think could lose to it tbh, to say nothing about a demiurge or higher being.
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