Pathfinder 1E Are druids overpowered in Pathfinder?

Petronius_Ironfist · Apr 9, 2011

heymitch said:
Armor with the Wild enchantment would add to your AC while wild shaped, however, a Mage Armor spell will not. Neither will Bracers of Armor. You don't get to count Armor bonuses to AC in wild shape unless it comes from armor with the Wild enchantment. The spell and the item add an Armor bonus, which would simply be ignored in wild shape. It'll raise your AC when you're in your natural form, but that's it.

Petronius: your Barkskin spell at level 10 should add +4 to Natural Armor, not +3. Your AC without the Mage Armor is 27 at 10th level. If you don't have a Belt of Dexterity at that level, shouldn't you be casting Cat's Grace every encounter? That would bring it to 29. Also, a Shield of Faith spell cast by your Cleric (using that same Pearl of Power I) would net you that extra +1 to AC to put you back at AC 30. Maybe not worth the spell, but I wanted to replace what you'd lose from Mage Armor.

Heymitch, thanks for the checks. I guess I'll just have to go without an armor bonus, then. I KNOW I'll be maxing out my WIS, and I guess I'll be dropping that 36kgp I would have spent on bracers and the 4kgp I would have spent on a +2 DEX belt onto a +4 STR/DEX belt instead. Looks like I'll be buying another POP I for shield of faith - and a lot of soda for the player

Petronius_Ironfist · Apr 9, 2011

heymitch said:
One other point about Bracers of Armor: any special abilities applied to the Bracers, such as Fortification or Invulnerability, will apply to your Druid while wild shaped. Bracers of Armor +1 with Light Fortification would grant you Light Fortification in wild shape, but no AC increase, and would cost 4000gp, for example.

True!! I'll still use the slot - for light fort (per your example), though when I finally upshift to elemental body, it won't be as useful unless I can put them on my Animal Companion...

Celtavian · Apr 10, 2011

re

Not in my experience.

Druids are pretty good at certain levels. Low level the animal companion is pretty nice. It stays fairly formidable up to lvl 10 or so.

High level druids are pretty lacking compared to many other classes. Wild change against high level creatures is ok. Druid spell selection isn't as good as other classes. Not as many hit points.

The new way wild shape is done makes druids another MAD class. Not that you can't make a fairly formidable druid, but other classes will be as strong or stronger at what you do. Noticeably so.

Celtavian · Apr 10, 2011

ProfessorCirno said:
Level 9 spells

You're on a Pathfinder forum. With people that know how to run 3.x and it's new incarnation. 9th lvl spells don't give us a problem like yourself. It's obvious from the many discussions I've had with you that you weren't very good at running 3.x and didn't play with DMs that were very good at running it. If you had, you might have a different view of it like those of us that enjoyed running it at any level and knew how to design encounters to challenge high level characters.

We didn't fall for foolish player tricks like rope trick with the one encounter adventuring day, follow modules blindly, or allow the cleric and druid to walk into each encounter buffed up so that he made the fighter look like garbage. Probably why I don't have much experience with these phenomena.

DMs and players in my group always assumed the enemies were highly intelligent and designed their war crews to deal with adventurers. That means having dispel magics handy to strip those clerics down rather quickly, flying minions or ranged attackers to deal with fliers, and encounters designed to challenge an entire party rather than allow one character to shine above all others.

It's what I like to refer to as experience. That's all 3.x required. We who enjoy the 3.x ruleset and now Pathfinder know well how to deal with high level characters. Thanks for stopping by and not addressing the question of the OP. I imagine you didn't address the OPs question because you don't really know much about druids in Pathfinder. So why not stay on the 4E boards where you have some knowledge of the game.

heymitch · Apr 10, 2011

Celtavian said:
Not in my experience.

Druids are pretty good at certain levels. Low level the animal companion is pretty nice. It stays fairly formidable up to lvl 10 or so.

High level druids are pretty lacking compared to many other classes. Wild change against high level creatures is ok. Druid spell selection isn't as good as other classes. Not as many hit points.

The new way wild shape is done makes druids another MAD class. Not that you can't make a fairly formidable druid, but other classes will be as strong or stronger at what you do. Noticeably so.

Not sure I entirely agree with the hit point thing. At 12th level, when Druids are wild shaping into Huge Elementals, the Druid is getting a +4 Size bonus (+8 for Water Elemental) to Con. When I build Druids, I generally give them a respectable Con to begin with, so their hit points with a Belt of Perfection +2, say a 14 Con to begin with, a +4 Size bonus to Con as an Earth Elemental, plus I don't often skip the Toughness feat...that's 12th level with a d8 and 20 Con = 8 + 55 (1/2 +1 - lvl 2-12) + 60 (Con) + 12 (Toughness) + 12 (Favored Class) = 147 hit points. That's pretty respectable versus most classes, and especially against other casters.

Although, I'll grant you that other primary casting classes tend to have a better spell list overall. Also, I tend to favor a Huge Air Elemental form (which doesn't give the Con bonus, so about 123 hit points), but then I'm using wild shaping at this level mostly for utility, not combat.

heymitch · Apr 10, 2011

Celtavian said:
You're on a Pathfinder forum. With people that know how to run 3.x and it's new incarnation. 9th lvl spells don't give us a problem like yourself. It's obvious from the many discussions I've had with you that you weren't very good at running 3.x and didn't play with DMs that were very good at running it. If you had, you might have a different view of it like those of us that enjoyed running it at any level and knew how to design encounters to challenge high level characters.

We didn't fall for foolish player tricks like rope trick with the one encounter adventuring day, follow modules blindly, or allow the cleric and druid to walk into each encounter buffed up so that he made the fighter look like garbage. Probably why I don't have much experience with these phenomena.

DMs and players in my group always assumed the enemies were highly intelligent and designed their war crews to deal with adventurers. That means having dispel magics handy to strip those clerics down rather quickly, flying minions or ranged attackers to deal with fliers, and encounters designed to challenge an entire party rather than allow one character to shine above all others.

It's what I like to refer to as experience. That's all 3.x required. We who enjoy the 3.x ruleset and now Pathfinder know well how to deal with high level characters. Thanks for stopping by and not addressing the question of the OP. I imagine you didn't address the OPs question because you don't really know much about druids in Pathfinder. So why not stay on the 4E boards where you have some knowledge of the game.

I'm not sure your reply is very helpful, but obviously you and Cirno have a history.

While I read Cirno's original (short) post, I simply took it to mean that:

1. No casting class with 9th level spells is really underpowered, and
2. Any full casting class can be overpowered compared to non-casters, particularly when higher level spells come into play.

If that's what he meant to say, then I agree with him, and I have played an awful lot of 3.5 and Pathfinder.

heymitch · Apr 10, 2011

One other point about Druids is that your equipment purchases will tend to be more focused than other classes, particularly since so many items won't be accessible to you in wild shape.

There's no point in investing in any weapons (after the first couple of levels) except an Amulet of Natural Armor. If you do the Monk dip-level thing, you won't be investing in armor, either. You can't use wands, or rods, or scrolls, or potions, or any items requiring activation while in wild shape. That isn't to say that you'll never own scrolls or a wand of cure light wounds or lesser restoration, but you're liable to make less of an investment into these items than other casters, since using it requires you to drop out of wild shape to retrieve the item.

It also means that more of your wealth will be concentrated in things that work in wild shape, like stat-boosting headbands and belts, cloak of resistance, ring of protection, and the like. You'll tend to have fewer (but more expensive) items than other classes that collect every knickknack they can get their hands on.

I also think that the Craft Wondrous Item feat tends to be underrated for Druids, since most of the items you really need, you can make with that one feat (at half the price). It's especially useful in campaigns where it's hard to find the magic items you really want.

Dannager · Apr 10, 2011

Celtavian said:
You're on a Pathfinder forum. With people that know how to run 3.x and it's new incarnation. 9th lvl spells don't give us a problem like yourself. It's obvious from the many discussions I've had with you that you weren't very good at running 3.x and didn't play with DMs that were very good at running it. If you had, you might have a different view of it like those of us that enjoyed running it at any level and knew how to design encounters to challenge high level characters.

We didn't fall for foolish player tricks like rope trick with the one encounter adventuring day, follow modules blindly, or allow the cleric and druid to walk into each encounter buffed up so that he made the fighter look like garbage. Probably why I don't have much experience with these phenomena.

DMs and players in my group always assumed the enemies were highly intelligent and designed their war crews to deal with adventurers. That means having dispel magics handy to strip those clerics down rather quickly, flying minions or ranged attackers to deal with fliers, and encounters designed to challenge an entire party rather than allow one character to shine above all others.

It's what I like to refer to as experience. That's all 3.x required. We who enjoy the 3.x ruleset and now Pathfinder know well how to deal with high level characters. Thanks for stopping by and not addressing the question of the OP. I imagine you didn't address the OPs question because you don't really know much about druids in Pathfinder. So why not stay on the 4E boards where you have some knowledge of the game.

Ignoring the fact that your reply is an obvious personal attack (and, really, do you want to be seen as contributing to the perception that the PFRPG crowd can't have a discussion without resorting to personal attacks?), your response to Cirno's comment that druids are as powerful as any other full caster is to say that he ran the game wrong? By following the rules?

Lest we forget, when someone asks you if X is the case in a game, "X isn't the case if you mess with the rules," does nothing to demonstrate that X isn't the case. All it demonstrates is that you can change the rules.

Petronius_Ironfist · Apr 10, 2011

Heymitch - agreed on the strategy. The one cool thing about druid's spells are that they don't try to be the "master blaster" or "save or die" type. Most don't have a direct effect - but they completely rule the battlefield. With quicken, augment summoning, and spell pen (for the very few that trigger SR) I can field an army, lock down the field of combat to help my allies and hinder my enemies, fly back and forth and immobilize foes, provide flanking to my fairly powerful animal companion, etc. etc. I don't see myself engaging in direct combat - that's why I summon.

At low levels, when the AC/spirit of the beast build makes sense I'm mainly buffing myself anyway. I've proven to be able to hold my own.

If I was trying to be a melee fighter at high level, I'll fail; if I try to be a glass cannon, I'll fail. If I try to amp up everyone else, I'll rock.

Petronius_Ironfist · Apr 10, 2011

Now if only I can get my DM to let me craft...

Pathfinder 1E Are druids overpowered in Pathfinder?

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