Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

Dannager said:

I didn't, I was just stating it as a matter of fact. The point I was making is merely that WotC is literally years ahead of the rest of its competition when it comes to digital integration.

Paizo will get there, though.

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I am not sure I get them being years ahead. A different digital distribution strategy, yes. But years ahead?

Now granted I need to use 3rd party tools to do a good amount, but that is possible due to decisions Paizo has made to keep their rules out in the open allowing these 3rd party digital initiatives to further enhance the game.

But I have electronic distribution of the rules and fluff, I have character builders, I have monster advancers, I have VTTs with frameworks that support Pathfinder and such. These are done in different methods than a DDI subscription, but I have them now and can use them daily.

Is it because Paizo hasn't developed these things themselves that you say WotC is years ahead?

IronWolf said:

Now granted I need to use 3rd party tools to do a good amount, but that is possible due to decisions Paizo has made to keep their rules out in the open allowing these 3rd party digital initiatives to further enhance the game.

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One could argue that this is less convenient because you don't have a central place to get your stuff. On the other hand, this gains you a lot of alternatives.

IronWolf said:

But I have electronic distribution of the rules and fluff, I have character builders, I have monster advancers, I have VTTs with frameworks that support Pathfinder and such. These are done in different methods than a DDI subscription, but I have them now and can use them daily.

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Well, there are other tools for doing 4e stuff as well. You can run a pretty fully realized 4e game using Maptools plus one of the corresponding frameworks. I use Mortaneus'/DarkSir's Combat Manager to organize my gaming and have played around with iPlay4e/InCombat4e as well.

Is it because Paizo hasn't developed these things themselves that you say WotC is years ahead?[/QUOTE]

Yes they are - as far as convenience and cost are concerned. WotC likes to be your one stop site for all things 4e. You can pay for the service and don't have to fool around with data entry, setting up game servers and stuff like that.

If I would have to select a game system solely based on its digital offerings and possibilities, I would decide for 4e/DDI. For me convenience beats possibilities and number of alternatives, but that's a very personal decision.

Now I have selected to go with 4e three years ago without thinking about the whole digital stuff. The digital stuff is an option for me I have decided to use.

Dannager believes that the digitalization of RPGs is the way of the future. If this is true, WotC is years ahead of Paizo. Whether "years ahead" has a negative or a positive ring to it, is any gamer's personal decision.

Banshee16 said:

My iPod's more *convenient* than my CD player. But if I want good audio, I listen to my stereo and CD's....not MP3's. The difference is marked.

I also find reading on a screen far more tiring, and less satisfying than just having a book in front of me. The only advantage a screen gives me is the ability to have a bunch of books easily......same thing with carrying MP3's in a player. The actual quality isn't better. Just the convenience.

Banshee

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Let's not ignore what's going on though. The sale of Mp3 players and Ipods absolutely dwarfs the sale of high quality audio equipment. While the audiophile certainly wants a certain level of equipment, the vast majority couldn't care less.

There's no doubt in my mind that we're seeing a large shift in the print market. You only have to look at the big, mainstream publishers to see that. The growth of publishers like Subterranean Press, who specialize in high quality, gorgeous books while the larger publishers are struggling to maintain even the status quo shows that the days of the pulp market are numbered.

The nice thing is, RPG books do fit nicely into that niche of beautiful coffee table book. And, IMO, that niche will never go away entirely. But, as you get ubiquitous penetration of smart phones and various other e-reader capable devices, you're going to see the death of large print run RPG books.

The small print run guys will always be around because they can get away with publishing five, ten thousand copies and make a dollar. But the guys that need fifty thousand copies? They're going to go digital.

Jan van Leyden said:

One could argue that this is less convenient because you don't have a central place to get your stuff. On the other hand, this gains you a lot of alternatives.

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Yes, very valid regarding the central place to get your stuff. With Pathfinder I do have one place to get my rule books and setting books in digital format. But to piece together my character builders, monster advancers and VTT I do need to find those from other sources. I don't see this as a con for my preferences, but I can certainly understand some might.

Jan van Leyden said:

Yes they are - as far as convenience and cost are concerned. WotC likes to be your one stop site for all things 4e. You can pay for the service and don't have to fool around with data entry, setting up game servers and stuff like that.

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Convenience - I have been using a tablet a lot to access my Paizo rules in PDF or via the PFSRD, is DDI working on the tablet? It might be - I don't know.

As for cost. Yeah, if I wanted access to *all* Pathfinder content (i.e. including their player companion products, etc) then I would likely spend more than a DDI sub. But with the Pathfinder things I still have access to everything I previously purchased even on months I decide I don't want to make the purchase. This is a huge advantage for me and one I warrant paying a little more is worth it.

I don't really have to fool around with data entry now with the tools I have been using to digitally support my Pathfinder gaming. As for setting up a game server (i.e. MapTool) it took me a couple of minutes to do what was needed and I haven't had an issue yet with people connecting to my MapTool server. I do recognize this may be more of an issue for some though.

Jan van Leyden said:

If I would have to select a game system solely based on its digital offerings and possibilities, I would decide for 4e/DDI. For me convenience beats possibilities and number of alternatives, but that's a very personal decision.

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I totally respect that decision. I think you and I have shown some of the differences between the models and what I considers pros you consider cons.

People certainly aren't going to feel the same way about certain options and I begrudge no one for choosing DDI as their favored digital distribution method. I just don't think that is the one true way however and prefer the tools I have at hand for playing Pathfinder digitally. I am just glad to have options to choose from so that ultimately you and I can both be happy with our game of choice and tools of choice.

Jan van Leyden said:

Dannager believes that the digitalization of RPGs is the way of the future. If this is true, WotC is years ahead of Paizo. Whether "years ahead" has a negative or a positive ring to it, is any gamer's personal decision.

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So maybe the better question is what exactly can you do with Wizards offering that I can't do playing Pathfinder digitally? It seems like this thread moves between discussing distribution channels and sometimes the tools.

I don't dislike seeing things move to digital options. I don't like Wizards digital distribution strategy (I feel like I am leasing the game, not owning it) whereas I prefer how I get things done digitally in the Pathfinder realm at the moment.

Hussar said:

The nice thing is, RPG books do fit nicely into that niche of beautiful coffee table book. And, IMO, that niche will never go away entirely. But, as you get ubiquitous penetration of smart phones and various other e-reader capable devices, you're going to see the death of large print run RPG books.

The small print run guys will always be around because they can get away with publishing five, ten thousand copies and make a dollar. But the guys that need fifty thousand copies? They're going to go digital.

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It seems to me that the very premise of this thread in the first place - i.e., that Pathfinder is currently outselling D&D - raises some serious objections to that point of view. We know, for instance, that even as e-reader penetration has accelerated over the last two years (and the vast majority of e-readers have no difficulties reading a Paizo PDF), sales of the Pathfinder hardcover have been increasing. Also, while the rulebook line is clearly doing much better than Paizo initially expected, and may in fact have actually become the largest revenue generator for the company (that is pure speculation, of course, and Paizo's certainly not going to tell us), the Adventure Path and smaller supplemental lines seem to be growing as well, despite not being in the "beautiful hardcover" realm.

I would argue that convenience is winning out here, but that it is taking a different form: the subscription model, which allows a Pathfinder enthusiast to automatically purchase books without having to take any additional steps. It's certainly taking more money from my pocket than they would otherwise have gotten, since I don't really like the Map Folios (outside of Kingmaker's which has proven extremely useful) but continue to buy them anyway because they are part of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting line. If "convenience" is truly the only thing that a digital alternative has to offer, then it is only as much "the way of the future" as it is actually more convenient.

The day that the online tools become required is the day that the Tabletop RPG will likely head toward its demise.

The online tools should enhance the tabletop RPG, not run it. If they run it, then they start to go up against online games. Against that, they likely have no hope of success.

Indeed, the faster WotC moves everything online, it's likely the faster tabletop D&D goes away. I wouldn't call that advancing the game - I'd call it killing it.

IronWolf said:

Is it because Paizo hasn't developed these things themselves that you say WotC is years ahead?

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Yes. Paizo has almost zero control over these applications and services - they could be shut down or made unavailable tomorrow and Paizo wouldn't be able to do anything about it to ensure that its customers still had access to these digital integration tools.

Don't doubt for a second that Paizo wants its own character builder application. If they had the resources to invest in such a project, they probably would. Any RPG company would. The reality of their business model (historically) is that they need to focus all of their efforts on their print lines.

DaveMage said:

The day that the online tools become required is the day that the Tabletop RPG will likely head toward its demise.

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Replace "online tools" with "miniatures", "battle mats", "cards", "laptops", or any other innovation or change to the hobby in the last decade, and you have the cry of a now-humbled doomsayer.

Just because you can't imagine a future in which tabletop roleplaying games are made better through the assumption of online services doesn't mean that the rest of us can't either, or that such a future won't eventually become the present.

Requiring an online tool doesn't mean that a computer is going to run your game, anymore than a game that requires a calculator to take care of some difficult math is run by the calculator. The sad part is that you got three other people to agree with you.

You know what's going to lead tabletop RPGs to their demise, with absolute certainty?

Stagnation.

Dannager said:

You know what's going to lead tabletop RPGs to their demise, with absolute certainty?

Stagnation.

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Meh

Technological advancement will come as the market demands it and in the ways the market demands it.

Tabletop RPGs and their designers have no real choice either way on that front. Individual companies can resist and that will drag them down. They can also push the boundaries, which will help them. UNLESS, they guess wrong and don't push in the right direction. And that happens as well.

But the really important thing is making the games that a lot of people want to play. The right tools will follow.

And I DO think it is very important to distinguish between online tools and virtual online play.