Legends and Lore 11/22/2011 - A Different Way to Slice the Pie

I wonder if Monte ever watched the podcast in which Chris Perkins DMed for the RoboChicken guys?

Chris was doing exactly what Monte describes: Introducing the rules right before they became important. And if I may say so, that's how I've been doing it, too, when introducing new players to the game.

But this doesn't have a lot to do with presenting the rules in the books. Of course it makes sense to describe the straightforward parts first and visit the complications later. But the complete ruleset needs to be presented somewhere in the book(s).

Tying complexity to character levels is simply a bad idea. Everyone's learning the game only a single time. But once someone's hooked, she'll want to have access to all the rules right from the start.

Likewise it would be nice if a beginning player could enter a game without having to start at level 1. Joining a high-level group should be possible without having to deal with a (too) complex character.

Allowing a group to choose their preferred level of complexity is a good thing. But ignoring rules that you feel are getting in the way of your fun because they add too much complexity is always easier than having to make up your own rules if you'd like a more complex game.

Monte's articles have all pretty much left me cold, so far.

JamesonCourage said:

I know he's not nailing anything down, but when these things are denied, I want an in-game explanation as to why that is. Why can't I grapple* at level 1? Building things so that monsters don't use them until level 8 is kinda meh to me, but it's more acceptable. Stopping the players from doing something that makes sense in-game (like grappling) because it's too complex? No thank you, and not ever. My preferences, though. As always, play what you like

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I suspect that, theoretically, a 1st level hero *could* grapple, but there wouldn't be a specific rule for it, it would be more ad hoc (alternatively, the DM could refer to the 'higher level' grapple rules assuming they're backwards compatible).

Or to put it another way, the DM finds the grapple rules if/when the player asks about it because the character would do so in the fiction, but at the metagame level, it's not explicitly on the character sheet at 1st level.

I'm not advocating that this is the right approach or not, but I think that would be the idea.

LurkAway said:

I suspect that, theoretically, a 1st level hero *could* grapple, but there wouldn't be a specific rule for it, it would be more ad hoc (alternatively, the DM could refer to the 'higher level' grapple rules assuming they're backwards compatible).

Or to put it another way, the DM finds the grapple rules if/when the player asks about it because the character would do so in the fiction, but at the metagame level, it's not explicitly on the character sheet at 1st level.

I'm not advocating that this is the right approach or not, but I think that would be the idea.

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While I'd personally rather have rules for it, I can definitely see it being eschewed from the character sheet. I don't think I'd object to that at all. I hope you're right., and that's more the direction he's talking about. As always, play what you like

JamesonCourage said:

While I'd personally rather have rules for it, I can definitely see it being eschewed from the character sheet. I don't think I'd object to that at all. I hope you're right., and that's more the direction he's talking about. As always, play what you like

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I see what you mean, though. There are actually 2 pies, aren't there? The first pie is the metagame/ruleset. You get more slices of that pie as you increase in level, as per the article. The 2nd pie is the fiction. You get more slices of that pie as you learn new spells, pick up wushu-y combat maneuvers, etc. But the grapple piece of the fiction pie is always available for the asking, so when do you get a piece of rules pie to go with that.

Regardless of particular ways of doing things in the game- I am SO glad to see Monte/Mike actually focusing on making the game more friendly for the non optimizers/power gamers/rule mongerers. D&D has become too bloated for it's own good since WOTC has owned the property.

My 8 sessions with my newbie to RPG 12 yo son playing a D&D 3.5 Basic/PF BB hybrid has proven the point for me as the last session he was so sick of tactics and rules interaction with tactics, a rule behind every idea he came up with,combat taking forever, etc he asked me if there is a easier version of the game to play. AFAIC, If you are just gonna throw the rules out and wing it, then why bother with the complex game to begin with? He enjoyed the BB books from an artistic aspect (it looks alot like his video Game cheat books in presentation), but his eyes just glazed over looking at the skills and combat chapters. I did too. So we had a good discussion on what he wanted from the game and his characters, and this week I'm working on a S&W house rule document so we can play anew this weekend.

Hmm...on one hand, this is how it has always been: the game--in any and every edition--gets somewhat more complicated the higher you go, if only because there are more things to keep track of (e.g. longer spell lists, more magic items, etc). But I don't like the idea that the a high level game is inherently much more complicated in terms of rules; I think the key is keeping even the higher level advanced rules as optional, stuff that you can tag on if you want to. Given the general thrust of what Monte & Mike have been saying for the last few months, it just wouldn't make sense otherwise.

I still think the best approach is to have a basic core and advanced modular options from the beginning. Certainly some of those options can "open up" only at higher levels, and a given campaign can introduce options later on--sort of like how psionics were often used in AD&D--but for certain rules, like powers for instance, they should be options from the beginning.

Stalker0 said:

This is the first time I've seen the "complexity dial" explained in a better context.

That said, I don't see how this is different from now. A first level character doesn't need to know about damage reduction and stunning even right now. We could probably move teleport and some conditions a little higher up, but what else could be completely removed from low level play?

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This is about as much "complexity dial" as 4E is "exception-based design." That is, if you squint at it real hard and abuse the definition of both terms, you can sort of make it fit. But otherwise, they aren't.

A much better example of a "complexity dial" would be something like more or less complex set of conditions, which--as far as the rules are concerned, would (or not, as you set it) apply at all levels. Say that the middle setting is what 4E has now. Dial up the complexity, and there might be more details attached to each condition (for realism, gameplay, etc.). Dial it down, and you might collapse things like Daze, Stun, etc. into a single action-denying condition. With the dial, you might also complicate or simplify durations or other aspects of how they work. Some of that might have power level implications--you wouldn't want Stuns to suddenly start happening all the time with low-level effects. But that's a side effect of what "Stun" means currently, not anything to do with the dial itself.

Now, from a presentation point-of-view, there might be some use in packaging terms by tiers or otherwise in such blocks. If you have a bunch of conditions that never apply in the heroic tier, then call them out so that people don't have to learn them. But imbedding terms in each discrete place they arise is delusional and just asking for trouble. One of two things will happen: 1) You introduce all kinds of inconsistency that will make 1st ed. AD&D a model of clarity by comparison. 2) You will maintain, internally, a consistent guide to those rules, which gamers will eventually work out on their own and ask you why the hell you just didn't say so from the beginning, since you knew?

A really bad idea all the way around.

The "complexity dial" I want to see exists less in "How much do I know?" and more in "What do all these things on my character sheet mean?"

For example how I see a complexity dial possibly working for movement:

• Low: Distance is measured in 3 steps Far, Close and Melee. One move action changes the distance between a character and an object by one step.
• Medium: As 4th edition has things.
• High: Distance and movement are measured in exact foot or decimeter amounts. A move action moves a character to any point within a circle with a radius equal to the character's speed accounting for terrain.

I'm, trying to imagine this in actual play.

Say I've got a 1st level bow-ranger, and an orc charges up next to me. I try to fire an arrow at him. What happens?

A) I shoot the arrow just fine because opportunity attacks have not been introduced.

B) We stop the game to look up the rule for what happens when you fire a bow while standing next to somebody.

C) The DM makes an ad hoc decision.

D) I'm sure I'm missing some options.

I think in terms of teaching somebody to play, the experienced player should only bring up rules as you need them, but in terms of game design it does not make a lot of sense to me. How do I know if there are going to be opportunity attacks unless I know what an opportunity attack is? Also I'd much rather have a unified concept that I only have to learn once (opportunity attack) then a dozen individual rules that I have to learn over and over (cast a spell, move away, shoot a bow).

Maybe opportunity attacks is not the best example. I could see this working with something like aquatic combat rules, which a DM/designer has more control over, or some paragon paths/prestige classes, which by their nature don't come up until higher level.

I'm going back and forth on what Monte's talking about, because I really can't determine just what types of rules he is referring to when he talks about attaching their arrival into the game to PC level.

There are a lot of rules 'under the hood' as it were... that sure, not having them appear until certain points in the game make sense, but those are directly tied to PC powers or monster statblocks that come from Level Up. For example, certain status conditions like Weakened or Stunned... Vulnerabilities and Resistances... power keywords like Reliable, Rattling, Zones, or Aftereffects... those kinds of thing I'd have no problem with them not appearing until certain points, because the wouldn't get used until such time as the PC powers or the higher-level monsters that have them, actually begin to appear in game.

But rules that directly affect character action that aren't connected to things you gain as part of the leveling process? OAs, Grab, Combat Advantage, certain uses of Skills, Running (just choosing a bunch of these rules that Monte is possibly talking about?) For generic abilities like these... I wouldn't want to have an arbitrary level assigned to them when they suddenly just 'show up' in the game. If the rule is good enough to use later... it's good enough to use at the beginning, assuming the DM is comfortable using it. Let ME as the DM decide whether or not Opportunity Attacks should be a part of the game. Don't turn it into a gained level ability when there's no reason to.

Make those rules part of the 'complexity module' concept that Mearls' talked about in his Legends & Lore column months ago. So all the 'extra' combat maneuvers like OA, Grab, Bull Rush, Charge, Escape, Crawl etc. could be its own module that the DM could choose to add to his game or not. But that would be a decision he could make at the START of the game... not at some random point in the campaign just because the designers wanted to keep the early game easier.

At the very least... if WotC really wants to make an 'easier' beginning game... then I'd greatly suggest doing exactly what I mentioned in my New 5E Tiers System thread over in General. Create a specific STARTER SET introductory Tier. Designate Levels 1-3 or 1-5 or whatever as the BASIC GAME, and only include those rules meant for beginning players. But once the next Tier opens up... all complexity tied to character action should immediately open up to EVERYBODY as well. Make the CHANGE IN TIERS be really important in that way. But for goodness sake... don't have game rules arrive in dribs and drabs each and every level, especially when there's no good reason why they arbitrarily show up.