Player vs. Player Discussion

What hinders two players to test 'their' characters in a PvP? They can just create a thread in 'Playing the Game', look for another EN Worlder as a referee if they want and start battle, using the stats of their current LPF character.

My question for the PvP enthusiast is simply what they 'gain' form PvP.
If my above suggestion fills their needs, the 'duels' should not be an official part of LPF.

If PvP is something cordoned off over that way (*waves hand vaguely in a direction*), I'm not as opposed to it, I think, as when it sounded like anyone could saunter up and bully someone else because he or she was bored. SK and seems to me to be going in the right direction, then.

It's not something I find appealing at all, but I also don't get much out of the card and dice gambling games that periodically show up in Inn threads for folks who are killing time. So long as PvP works similarly (i.e. join in if you want, but there's no real XP benefit to overshadow real adventures), I'm not entirely opposed to allowing something that folks might conceivably use during downtimes when there aren't enough characters to form a full party and / or aren't any adventures about.

If I'm remembering right, GE's proposal came about during discussions of what kind of 'always ready' encounters might be available for those same 'downtime' periods. Also not something I oppose, but as he points out, an entirely different beast from setting up an empty room where PC's can hit each other.

I'm still ambivalent about allowing any form of PvP into LPF, but am leaning toward allowing it in some format similar to what SK outlined.

However, I'll renew my objection to any XP or GP reward. I think this would foster a situation where some players would spend the majority of their time dueling rather than adventuring in order to level up, which I think is strongly contrary to the interests of a living world. There's no chance of dying, so no real risk. And while a dueling arena would contribute to the world - a new setting, primarily - the duels themselves would be a relatively minor contribution.

That is why I was suggesting that it
A) costs to buy a badge to join the PvP crowd. Probably make this 50 gp. If you lose a fight, you have to buy a new badge.
B) costs in healing wand charges to heal your opponent, win or lose. (or scrolls of raise dead if you go vicious)
C) The only reward is a handkerchief or badge. Fame is all you get if you win.

That makes it too costly for the newbie first levels to jump in. For veteran characters, it is a slight drain on resources, but something to do if they are real bored. If we vote that we want first level characters to have a shot at the arena, we can bring the prices down a bit.

And the bully issue is solved by the fact one has to openly declare they want PvP by wearing their badge. I can see the situation where a few people in the 3-4 range are wearing their badges in the DWI, and in walks a famous barbarian orc at 5th level. Everybody grabs their handkerchief and quickly shoves in in their pocket or backpack.

Another idea to add to the concept. Professional NPCs. These NPCs are professional gladiators that are built on the wiki. They can be picked up by a player/GM and used as an opponent for a character that wants to go test himself at the arena. The NPCs, and only the NPCs, earn 500 XP if they win the fight. It is their only way of leveling. Their adventure log section would contain "Played by who, fought him, won (level of opponent)x200 xp, (lvl)x180 gp, url to fight". For those people who like to build characters, they can spend extra time building fairly optimized NPCs on the wiki that anyone can pick up and use in the arena. And wilder races can be built there, because they are just NPCs. The kobold sorcerer, the ogre barbarian. The NPCs can be built at any starting level to spread them out so players have a range to choose from. It opens the door to more what GE had in mind.

I don't think this is something the judges need to get into too much, and I think everyone is making this more complicated than it needs to be. All you need to do is set up a similar location like the Mystic Pearl. Just say that somewhere in Venza there's a combat arena that's enchanted for non-lethality. The owner charges admission to watchers, but doesn't pay the gladiators.

If two players decide they want to have it out for whatever reason, they can go to the arena and fight it out. If they feel they need a GM, they can get one. If the GM wants to add spikes and pits and environmental hazards, sure why not? Heck, maybe they can ask other characters to second for them in-character. Then they create a dueling thread, resolve whatever they want to resolve, and walk away. There's nothing that the judges need to do unless they want to.

Here's a quick proposal. In the slums of Venza, down by the docks, stands the Pit of Blood. The Pit is a huge, rambling warehouse that stinks of old meat and strange chemicals. The walls hold row after row of balcony seating, while the floor is bare, hard-packed earth ... usually. For special fights, a variety of dangerous contraptions can be installed, and magics can be used to create pits and ramps, areas of darkness, and shadowy conjurations.

The most strange and notable feature of the Pit is the Spell of Undying that has been cast on it. On the killing floor, grievous harm can be inflicted, but death cannot claim anyone. Wounds that would kill a man many times over cause nothing more than unconsciousness and tremendous pain. (Mechanically: Fights work as normal, but death doesn't kill you, just knocks you out.)

No one besides the ownders know how the Spell of Undying actually works -- there are ancient rumors of such a spell, but it had been thought to be a myth. Where the owners discovered the spell and how it is maintained remain a mystery.

The Pit is jointly owned by an aasimar cleric Benjar Grell and a halfling wizard named Hul Egan, although there are rumors of a shadowy third party that the other two report to. Benjar serves as the face of the Pit, and is its announcer, while Hul manages the finances. Both Benjar and Hul are unsavory types: Benjar relishes the blood and pain of the contestants, and the healing he provides is ... unsettlling. And Hul is interested in nothing more than money, by any possible means. Nonetheless, the two of them are close friends. A variety of large, seedy men work as bouncers and stagehands.

The Whitecloaks of Venza tolerate the Pit, but only barely. Several of them suspect that there are links to criminal enterprises and dark forces, but nothing can be proven. And since the nobility has taken a liking to the gladatorial games, it has become doubly hard to investigate.

Mowgli said:

I'm still ambivalent about allowing any form of PvP into LPF, but am leaning toward allowing it in some format similar to what SK outlined.

However, I'll renew my objection to any XP or GP reward. I think this would foster a situation where some players would spend the majority of their time dueling rather than adventuring in order to level up, which I think is strongly contrary to the interests of a living world. There's no chance of dying, so no real risk. And while a dueling arena would contribute to the world - a new setting, primarily - the duels themselves would be a relatively minor contribution.

Click to expand...

To counter this in other RPG's that I have played that did have XP awards for PvP, it was established that a character could only participate in one PvP match per set period of time (in alot of cases this was a week or two weeks) so that would force them to find other things to do during the off hours because these duels were likely long over well before the time limiting them was run out.

Walking Dad said:

What hinders two players to test 'their' characters in a PvP? They can just create a thread in 'Playing the Game', look for another EN Worlder as a referee if they want and start battle, using the stats of their current LPF character.

Click to expand...

This is my thought. So much of this sounds like "testing" of builds and such. That just starts to get down to such a meta level. And if there are roleplaying components of this then it is bound to spill over to normal LPF play. Where we might have characters no longer willing to adventure with each other or "trash talking" as part of roleplaying which eventually leads to the player tensions.

Are ideas like Satin Knight's interesting? Yes. To me though the pros of such arrangements do not outweigh the potential risks or cons.

There is room for people to PvP here at EN World. The main PbP threads could work for this, I just do not see why it needs to be under the guise of LPF.

Systole said:

If two players decide they want to have it out for whatever reason, they can go to the arena and fight it out. If they feel they need a GM, they can get one. If the GM wants to add spikes and pits and environmental hazards, sure why not? Heck, maybe they can ask other characters to second for them in-character. Then they create a dueling thread, resolve whatever they want to resolve, and walk away. There's nothing that the judges need to do unless they want to.

Click to expand...

The potential problem comes with one character approaching another character when one doesn't really want to participate. It has potential to lead to mocking another character for cowardice when it is simply they don't enjoy PvP. This leads to increased tensions between players.

This leads to judges possibly getting involved to calm tensions down and possibly alienating a player because they could be approached by another player who might not take the refusal to "duel" well and further play out that interaction.

At this point I still see more cons/risks to allowing any form of PvP than I do pros. That isn't to say some of the ideas suggested so far aren't good. They just haven't shown more pros to allowing it than the cons they still bring (to me, I am only one judge).

DalkonCledwin said:

To counter this in other RPG's that I have played that did have XP awards for PvP, it was established that a character could only participate in one PvP match per set period of time (in alot of cases this was a week or two weeks) so that would force them to find other things to do during the off hours because these duels were likely long over well before the time limiting them was run out.

Click to expand...

Were these PbP games? One duel between higher level characters could easily take a week or two to resolve depending on posting rate.

And I'd rather LPF not be a place people come to duel and then "forced" to participate in adventures. Dueling should not be the primary focus of LPF in my opinion.

DC mentioned his altercation with his character in the DWI, and I myself had a similar incident some months back.

People already have their personal lists of who they won't play with or DMs they will not play under. The PvP of dueling will probably not change that.

The downside of the restriction on PvP though, is that a punk 2nd level tough guy can pretty much mouth off to a higher level character and get away with it.

Hypothetical point, if Veniarus were to start ticking off Cythera in the DWI to a point where it would come to blows, she would remove his head and the eidolon's too without much effort. But she cannot so...

Every uppity 1-2nd level character with too much testosterone is basically allowed to hide behind momma LPF's skirts without fear of reprisal.

I think if there were the ability to conduct PvP, some people would think twice before trying to roleplay conflicts with other players. When everyone has a loaded gun and they are allowed to use it, they all tend to be more polite and considerate.