If a kaiju really emerged

Umbran said:

If you want us to stay with normal physics, this is not possible. Thermodynamics requires there be waste. No process is 100% efficient.

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Even ignoring that, a perfect digestive system is going to intake random elements and extract what it needs. That means no Oxygen is wasted, or carbon molecule of the right configuration. However, a big gaping nosehole and mouth are sucking in everything, so the non-useful materials will still need to be evacuated from the engine to make room for the next load of incoming fuel.

so whether by science or logic, if the thing intakes something for fuel, impurities will be in the mix, and the system will have to eject them or eventually clog up and quit working.

Umbran said:

If you want us to stay with normal physics, this is not possible.

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Exactly.

Morrus said:

They have skintight bio-forcefields like Superman, which provide resistance in proportion to the kinetic energy of the attack. So a bullet bounces off, but a slower punch hurts it a bit more. Problem is if you slow stuff down too much, the bio-forcefield doesn't help it, but its skin is tough enough to withstand slow stuff like that. As it happens, the sweet point of max damage is the amount of kinetic energy provided by a giant robot punch - not so slow as to bounce off the skin, not so fast as to be nullified by the forcefield.

Something like that?

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Sounds good for arguing why bullets don't work, mechs do, by nature of an energy field, rather than innate biology/structure.

I was hoping to hear Umbran give some sciency stuff on why a kaiju with BetterMatter/Engineering has to be bullet proof no matter what?

I am not of the belief that something engineered to survive the deep and stomp around Tokyo also happens to be immune to bullets. Whales go deep, and they are quite vulnerable to bullets (well, aside from the shooting into water problem). The engineering requirements to stomp around Tokyo do not need to include "being bullet proof" for free.

Note, I am not arguing that a movie maker can't say the monster is also bullet proof. I'm quibbling that just because you built a giant monster using advanced technology doesn't mean the materials, strength, etc include bullet proofing for free. Our planet is chock full of critters with tough shells, skin, etc and ain't none of them bullet proof or even proof from their own attacks.

I am more inclined to believe the monster is "just strong enough" to do move around and fight, but not much more. Like pretty much every other critter.

Morrus said:

It's not, and we have equations which tell us what would happen in that situation. Einstein wrote about relativity a century ago, and people have been writing about it ever since.

We also have equations which tell us what would happen if a creature was that big. It's basic structural integrity stuff.

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Those equations -- they tell us how to get a creature that big. Those equations tell us what the creature needs to be that size -- how strong does its skeleton need to be, how strong its muscles must be, how strong its skin must be. The numbers for those equations do go up that high -- we have ships and structures that use numbers much higher.

You seem to be assuming the creature is just scaled up human-like flesh and bone. Normal flesh and bone at that size would collapse, yes. So a creature of this scale must have stronger material for flesh and bone. And the equations tell us what the strength must be. And the answer is not impossible, or infinite, or magical.

Bullgrit

Bullet-proofing doesn't necessarily mean bullets (projectiles) bounce off. Bullets don't bounce off wood, but it can be used to "bullet proof" something. You can stand behind a decent-sized tree and be fully protected from normal bullets. If the kaiju's skin was as thick/dense as wood . . .

Bullgrit

Bullgrit said:

Those equations -- they tell us how to get a creature that big. Those equations tell us what the creature needs to be that size -- how strong does its skeleton need to be, how strong its muscles must be, how strong its skin must be. The numbers for those equations do go up that high -- we have ships and structures that use numbers much higher.

You seem to be assuming the creature is just scaled up human-like flesh and bone. Normal flesh and bone at that size would collapse, yes. So a creature of this scale must have stronger material for flesh and bone. And the equations tell us what the strength must be. And the answer is not impossible, or infinite, or magical.

Bullgrit

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OK, my point clearly wasn't made well, but I'm not going to belabour it. That wasn't it, though.

The numbers for those equations do go up that high -- we have ships and structures that use numbers much higher.

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Not really.

When a terrestrial animal with a solid skeleton moves, it generates forces in excess its own mass on its joints and supporting limbs. And the faster it moves- or the faster it spins, or the higher it jumps or falls- the more force we're talking about...and in more than one direction.

While we have skyscrapers that flex or slide, they don't actually bend. Compared to the forces on the joints of a living being, they are essentially static. The materials we use for building skyscrapers and warships would snap.

That doesn't even address the elastic properties of their 'soft" tissues- those that function as the tendons, ligaments, cartilage and muscles that make it possible to move that mass without shaking apart.

Kaiju...they are such stuff as dreams are made of.

Bullgrit said:

You seem to be assuming the creature is just scaled up human-like flesh and bone. Normal flesh and bone at that size would collapse, yes. So a creature of this scale must have stronger material for flesh and bone. And the equations tell us what the strength must be. And the answer is not impossible, or infinite, or magical.

Bullgrit

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I'd hate to argue on the side of Umbran, because he's always right...

But, I think Umbran is saying the math says the materials needed don't exist (yet). It is potentially possible that there's some funky poly-carbon matrix array thingy that makes for really light super strong bones that we don't know about. But I think the math says we need it, and we ain't go it.

The Kaiju is impossible argument is pretty much the same as the BattleTech 'Mechs are impossible argument. A 12 Meter mech that weighs 100 tons (Atlas) would need ginormous sized clown feet to keep from sinking into the ground.

Like in BattleTech, there's certain physics we have to ignore, in order to get to enjoy the rest of it.

I'm not sure we're all on the same page about which physics we're ignoring.

I would posit that if we're ignoring the normal biology size constraint (pretend the bones are more special than bird bones to enable the size), then you've got a mega-dinosoar with thick skin that big bullets can kill.

If the monster is made of "special" materials and molecular structures, to enable its size, I am not sure that that would include "being bullet proof" just to get the effect of stomping around Tokyo.

Bullgrit said:

Bullet-proofing doesn't necessarily mean bullets (projectiles) bounce off. Bullets don't bounce off wood, but it can be used to "bullet proof" something. You can stand behind a decent-sized tree and be fully protected from normal bullets. If the kaiju's skin was as thick/dense as wood . . .

Bullgrit

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And certainly we can quibble about what kind of bullet it takes to penetrate any thing. Let's assume I'm not talking handguns. We're talking high power/callibre stuff and beyond if the mundane existing stuff don't work. We'll make Cannons that shoot 1 ton Uranium slugs if that's what it takes.

Janx said:

Within that framework, why do we assume the kaiju is indestructible? Being able to withstand large pressures and strains spread across the surface or joint is not the same as being immune to penetration attacks.

Elephants are big, bulky and have thick skin. A .50 cal still drops them because high mass, high velocity rounds are still VERY small in comparison to the surface they are striking. A surface that was designed to resist a broad force and stress, rather than a high force, small surface attack (like .22s penetrating bullet proof vests).

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Because we are talking about something made of materials orders of magnitude tougher than elephants are. We're talking about tensile and compressive strengths not just in excess of those found in flesh, but in excess of those found in concrete and steel. Simply put, if it romps around trashing buildings apparently suffering no harm from that act, it must therefore be notably tougher than those buildings.

In any event, I'd like to see sciency refutation or support of the point that we are more likely to build a better bullet to kill a kaiju than a battle mech to kill a Kaiju.

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Well, for the first appearance, there's no time to build anything - meaner bullet or mech. You have to use what is on hand. As noted, I figure the worst thing we can do to it is make it eat a fusion bomb.

What we do for the second appearance depends on what we learn from the first. If we vaporize the first monster with a nuke, we don't learn much, and we resort to building better bullets.

If we have a carcass, well, then maybe things change. Maybe we make some leaps and bounds in materials science, such that building the carbon-nanotube fiberglass the thing uses for flesh, or whatever it is, becomes a possible. Then, while better bullets may still be cheaper, the answer is in geopolitics, not physical sciences. Better bullets can be used on human hard targets a whole lot more easily than mechas. You can't hide the darned mecha on the move. It is big, and relatively slow. The nations of the world have deployed systems to detect big moving objects to find the kaiju, and they'll find mecha as well. You can't smuggle mecha, build them in secret, or secretly hand them off to third parties to use against your enemies. If you use it against another nation, everyone knows it. And that nation has its own mecha for defense.

In human terms, mechs are strategic, not tactical weapons, and are less dangerous than nukes, unless they become so cheap to build that they're as numerous as tanks or fighter planes.

How's that for an no-prize answer?