Ruined forever

Something that got mentioned was Torchwood Children of Earth. I still think this is one of the best SF stories ever filmed. This is just great all the way around. Ruin Torchwood? Really? I thought this was the capstone for the series. Great stuff.

Miracle Day? Not so much.

Hussar said:

Something that got mentioned was Torchwood Children of Earth. I still think this is one of the best SF stories ever filmed. This is just great all the way around. Ruin Torchwood? Really? I thought this was the capstone for the series. Great stuff.

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I liked Children of Earth, but I liked the previous two seasons of Torchwood much more.

Hussar said:

Something that got mentioned was Torchwood Children of Earth. I still think this is one of the best SF stories ever filmed. This is just great all the way around. Ruin Torchwood? Really? I thought this was the capstone for the series. Great stuff.

Miracle Day? Not so much.

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That would be I. (giant shock)
Torchwood had it's problems from the beginning, trying to figure out what kind of show it was going to be. By the end series 1, it seemed to have it sorted. A few random episodes were a little weird or weak, but by the end of series 2 it was an overall decent show.
CoE. Hmmm... We have 2 organizations for dealing with aliens. One is international military: we aren't going to involve them in any way whatsoever because of PR problems. The other one is lead by a man who knows an embarrassing secret from 60 years ago. If he goes public (which would require exposing his secret immortality, and probably having to prove it in public, and all the embarrassment and humiliation that goes with being a celebrity, not to mention various labs wanting to kidnap him and run tests to unlock the secret), he could expose what this country did (under a completely different government, under a completely different leadership, under a completely different party, under the orders people who are long since dead), but again he would have to vilify himself to do so. No, we can't trust him or his organization. We aren't even going to try to talk to them. Let's blow them up! Wait, I thought the prime minister wasn't even supposed to know about Torchwood? Did that policy change somewhere?
Just about everything is a bombardment of gut, knee-jerk emotionalism, with no one thinking rationally or planning anything intelligent. Or even trying to. So the police and army are being sent to round up all the poor children. Really? Um, there aren't any soldiers whatsoever that would balk at this? That would resist those orders? I would think you'd find more than a few generals willing to lead troops in rebellion against a government that gave those orders. Certainly the police would be resistant.
But no, it's more emotional to show soldiers acting like stormtroopers, ready to steal children and sell them into slavery, no matter how illogical, irrational, and unlikely that would be.
Is this a country or government that The Doctor would ever want to save? Would he still consider humans his favorite species?

The story didn't hold together. In fact, it was bloody annoying. Almost as much as when Owen shot Jack in the back of the head, (not knowing that he was immortal) and was completely forgiven (not just by Jack, but by everyone) with no consequences whatsoever. It was more dramatic, so it was OK.

sabrinathecat said:

So the police and army are being sent to round up all the poor children. Really? Um, there aren't any soldiers whatsoever that would balk at this? That would resist those orders? I would think you'd find more than a few generals willing to lead troops in rebellion against a government that gave those orders. Certainly the police would be resistant.

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Yep, this all correct. I thought "Children of Earth" was pretty much the best Torchwood had to offer, but it does indeed have all the problems you describe. The above is especially galling.

Plus, it was a bit disappointing that the final resolution boiled down to that age-old Paladin thread we've had here on several occasions: if a Paladin knew the only way to save the world was to sacrifice an innocent child, what would he do?

sabrinathecat said:

Just about everything is a bombardment of gut, knee-jerk emotionalism, with no one thinking rationally or planning anything intelligent. Or even trying to. So the police and army are being sent to round up all the poor children. Really? Um, there aren't any soldiers whatsoever that would balk at this? That would resist those orders? I would think you'd find more than a few generals willing to lead troops in rebellion against a government that gave those orders. Certainly the police would be resistant.

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We already have numerous historical cases in which soldiers and the police seemed to have little problem rounding innocent people up, so I'd take that criticism with a grain of salt.

Absolutely agree with Moffat dealing with Doctor Who. I love Sherlock, for the most part, largely because Martin Freeman and Benedict Cumberbatch are incredibly talented, compelling actors who work with much of what they're given on a high, cerebral level. Doctor Who in Moffat's hands has suffered. For one, Moffat does entirely unconvincing female characters and seems to have a poor grasp of personal relationships. Note how River Song and the Doctor, and especially Clara and the Doctor, behave.

He seems to have stripped the Doctor of any credible emotional responses, and yes, I realize that a Time Lord has different views on things. Tennant's performances with Billy Piper/Rose show far deeper resonance than Moffat's era with River Song/Alex Kingston. I feel like too many of the storylines recently are either hugely focused on the Ponds (who I'm quite sick of) or became this speedy pastiche dumping a charming young woman (Clara) into a prominent position with as fast an arc as possible. I didn't by that she was so central and key to the storyline, saving the Doctor in different eras. I had little idea of what was critical about her position, and I didn't buy when everything hinged on her. I really think Moffat's strength is in the cerebral plot element, not emotion. He doesn't seem to get emotion beyond being a teenaged boy.

billd91 said:

We already have numerous historical cases in which soldiers and the police seemed to have little problem rounding innocent people up, so I'd take that criticism with a grain of salt.

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People is one thing. Most humans have a desire to protect Children.
Even children that aren't their own.
Soldiers and police still usually count as human.
So yeah, I have a hard time believing that there was no resistance whatsoever to the orders to round up children and sell them to an alien race. Maybe I'm overly idealistic. Or maybe the plot was overly simplistic.
You decide.

sabrinathecat said:

People is one thing. Most humans have a desire to protect Children.
Even children that aren't their own.
Soldiers and police still usually count as human.
So yeah, I have a hard time believing that there was no resistance whatsoever to the orders to round up children and sell them to an alien race. Maybe I'm overly idealistic. Or maybe the plot was overly simplistic.
You decide.

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I wish that was true but it is not. Look at how many children have died in wars. The vikings would slaughter entire villages including the children. The Germans didn't care that their bombs were killing children the allies didn't care about how many children died in the bombing of Dresden.

It would be easy to get the army and police to do it exempt their children. Let them know that if we don't do this all the children of the world are going to be destroyed.

And look how many soldiers have died Protecting children.

No matter what, consider the only acceptable aftermath of an event like this. If the government was willing to send their children to the aliens, the masses would revolt. No government could survive (by this, I don't mean the government of the day, but the government structure that exists--the entire thing, from the bedrock of the constitutional structure on up). Anyone who played along would be a valid target for the masses collective retaliation. You'd be inviting the French revolution and the October Revolution combined. In England, it would tear down the monarchy, the House of Lords, and the House of Commons, at the very least. And that's for the aliens eventually being defeated.
The notion that the people would just go back to cow-like acceptance just because the other party takes over the government when the PM resigns in disgrace would be very depressing. And that seems to be the assertion. Happy day, problem solved, minimal consequences.
Ironic, given the lecture that Harriet Jones gave the Doctor after having Torchwood blow up the ship during Christmas Invasion (you know, about having to take charge and take responsibility, and consequences, because the Doctor is not always around to save the day).

billd91 said:

We already have numerous historical cases in which soldiers and the police seemed to have little problem rounding innocent people up, so I'd take that criticism with a grain of salt.

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We do, but it's just not even close to realistic in the UK as it stands today. There's always a certain amount of suspension of disbelief required to watch these things, but that genuinely was beyond credible.