D&D 5E When should our warriors see their first +1 longswords?

My gut feeling is 3rd to 5th.

Blackbrrd said:

The threadmill of earlier editions where you went from +1 to +5 (or +6) weapons, armor (shields and ammunition) never was a big success in my eyes and not something 5e needs to repeat. Fewer, more significant items something I think will work out well.

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Aluvial said:

The odd thing about +1, whatever the edition, it means a 5% better chance to hit. That's a bigger deal then many people think. How many times do you miss by 1? (as a DM, I only miss by 1 if it means CERTAIN DOOM for a character who has been battered unfairly by the dice already. Otherwise, I never miss by 1. Drink.).

Anyhow, 5%s can add up!

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5e bounded accuracy suggests not to shell out weapons higher than +1 with ease.

However, the worst thing about + weapons is not the bonus itself, but rather the effect (seen in previous editions) of turning them into currency. In previous editions, +1 weapons (and other common items like cloak or resistance, ring of protection...) are a standard at a certain level range, all NPCs have +1 weapons at some point, and the PC soon each have their own and end up treating all the excess +1 weapons as money i.e. sell them and buy what you really want. Unfortunately, 3e with its built-in wealth-by-level system, almost requires all NPC to have weapons with +s appropriate to the adventure level.

Now if they want to stay safe with bounded accuracy in 5e, they are going to have only +1 weapons in printed adventures (with occasional exceptions). This may seem better than 3e, but from some point of view it might be worse, because now there isn't even any diversity after the first few levels... do we want every single NPC after e.g. level 3-4 to have a +1 swords? That means, soon the PC will find so many +1 swords that it's even more a standard currency than before.

That's why I said I'd rather never have published adventures give out +1 weapons.

It would be so much better if printed adventures only contained major magic items related to the story, or minor non-bonus trinkets. Let the DM then freely pour additional magic items into them, and take responsibility for the mess.

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Note also that the old 'magic as technology' approach doesn't work well with bounded accuracy.

When we had weapons up to +5, we could have a fantasy world where higher +s corresponded to higher technology skills: every town might have someone capable of enchanting +1 weapons while maybe you'd have to find someone important to get a +3, and perhaps only a handful of people in the whole world could make a +5.

Now that anything beyond +1 already has to be kept in check because of the math, technology diversity is only between +0 and +1. It's not that interesting as technology anymore.

We can still have 'magic as technology' for wondrous items and other non-bonus items of course.

I think the range of items will be +0 to +3, so four tiers basicly just divide 20 levels by 4 to get something like.

1-5 = no magic weapon
6-10 = +1
11-15 = +2
16-20 = +3

Li Shenron said:

5e bounded accuracy suggests not to shell out weapons higher than +1 with ease.

However, the worst thing about + weapons is not the bonus itself, but rather the effect (seen in previous editions) of turning them into currency. In previous editions, +1 weapons (and other common items like cloak or resistance, ring of protection...) are a standard at a certain level range, all NPCs have +1 weapons at some point, and the PC soon each have their own and end up treating all the excess +1 weapons as money i.e. sell them and buy what you really want. Unfortunately, 3e with its built-in wealth-by-level system, almost requires all NPC to have weapons with +s appropriate to the adventure level.

Now if they want to stay safe with bounded accuracy in 5e, they are going to have only +1 weapons in printed adventures (with occasional exceptions). This may seem better than 3e, but from some point of view it might be worse, because now there isn't even any diversity after the first few levels... do we want every single NPC after e.g. level 3-4 to have a +1 swords? That means, soon the PC will find so many +1 swords that it's even more a standard currency than before.

That's why I said I'd rather never have published adventures give out +1 weapons.

It would be so much better if printed adventures only contained major magic items related to the story, or minor non-bonus trinkets. Let the DM then freely pour additional magic items into them, and take responsibility for the mess.

---

Note also that the old 'magic as technology' approach doesn't work well with bounded accuracy.

When we had weapons up to +5, we could have a fantasy world where higher +s corresponded to higher technology skills: every town might have someone capable of enchanting +1 weapons while maybe you'd have to find someone important to get a +3, and perhaps only a handful of people in the whole world could make a +5.

Now that anything beyond +1 already has to be kept in check because of the math, technology diversity is only between +0 and +1. It's not that interesting as technology anymore.

We can still have 'magic as technology' for wondrous items and other non-bonus items of course.

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One way to fight the problem with bounded accuracy is by changing the bonus. Rather than a flat +1, have the weapon grant the ability to "fight like a 5th level Fighter". So it is an amazing weapon to find at 2nd level, it still has some value at 4th level, and the PC is ready to hand it down to someone else who can benefit at 5th or later once a weapon is acquired with a higher level.

Paraxis said:

I think the range of items will be +0 to +3, so four tiers basicly just divide 20 levels by 4 to get something like.

1-5 = no magic weapon
6-10 = +1
11-15 = +2
16-20 = +3

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As has been said, this doesn't correspond to what we've seen in the game -- we've got to be prepared to shed our old thinking.

This tier-based growth is already hardwired into the system (through the proficiency bonus). To adopt this solution serves only to augment (perhaps undermine) the nature of the proficiency bonus.

Kobold Stew said:

As has been said, this doesn't correspond to what we've seen in the game -- we've got to be prepared to shed our old thinking.

This tier-based growth is already hardwired into the system (through the proficiency bonus). To adopt this solution serves only to augment (perhaps undermine) the nature of the proficiency bonus.

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Definitely! And something that 'made sense' in previous editions doesn't automatically works in the new ones, we should try to think harder rather than just suggests rules of thumb that worked 10 years ago (and I think sometimes the designers make the same mistake).

Problem with the currency is that magic weapons are not bought or sold by default as well.

My take on it for 5th will be pretty much unchanged from previous editions: when other classes start seeing minor magic items for them; also, an adventure or two before they NEED them.

The first is about "fairness", the second, about the narrative transition from "I'm kicking butt NOW, baby!" to "Man, that sword saved my bacon!"

I think it's also worth noting that around level 4, there are a lot of creatures that are resistant to non-magical weapons.

In my 5e game I aim to give each player 1 major magic item per 5 levels. I think the first item they got was a +1 greatsword at level 3 or 4. They are level ~10 and haven't seen anything with a higher bonus than +1, although I have started giving out weapons with major effects as well. Stuff like a flaming sword, a dagger of venom, etc...

One idea that I have used is that certain items take more than just 10 minutes of meditation to attune with. So for example, the original greatsword was a relic of an ancient cult to an old war god. The party later learned about a trial and ritual to attune with such blades and sought out the ruins of that cult's temple in order to perform the ritual. Now, the blade can also be activated to do extra damage for a short while each day. In that way I was able to take the "plain" +1 sword and by extrapolating the randomly rolled lore and properties, I scaled it up so that the player could keep his first magic weapon but still play with flashier effects.

SI have found that with a low number of magic items the players do pay more attention to the lore and minor details of their items. I pay careful attention to what 'drops' so that a new magic item never eclipses an old one.

I don't plan on handing out items with a + of higher than 2, but my players may see effects that are more world-shattering.