D&D 5E How would you handle EPIC levels?

Another way to do is is do epic destinies like 4e.

Each epic destiny gives you like 3-4 special features. No bonus HD or spells or feats unless the destiny gives it to you.

Archmage: Must have at least 20 levels of bard, fighter (eldritch knight), rogue (arcane trickster), sorcerer, warlock, or wizard.
21st: Spell Knowledge
26th: Arcane Spirit
30th: Archspell
40th: High Arcana

Grandmaster of Flowers: Must have at least 15 levels of monk and be at least level 20.
21st:
26th:
30st:
40th: Punch Out of Existence

Stuff like Legendary Swordsman, Awakened Demigod, Archdruid,

If I wanted to run an epic-level game I would just increase the required XP to go from levels 17 to 20. I would also let the PCs find ridiculous items and fight ancient dragons and whatnot.

We are talking here about an extension to level 1-20. Twenty is just a capstone in your brain.

What i want to say.... the philosophy of balancing things will stay the same.

- ability scores are still capped at 20.
- armor class "might" raise by max 1-3 points
- there wont be an automatic way for ascension through leveling

My bet on levels past 20:

- no spell slot progression for casters
- no sneak attack for rogues
- no extrattack (4) for fighters
- no rage damage increase for barbarians

- hitpoint and profiency progression continues

Prof. Bonus
21th +7 Legendary Feature
22th +7
23th +7 Legendary Feature
24th +7
25th +8 Legendary Feature
26th +8
27th +8 Legendary Feature
28th +8
29th +9 Legendary Feature
30th +9

Legendary Features:
Death Blow, Ritual Mastery, Spell Capacity, Persistent Effect (Spell), Legendary Spell, Chosen of God (any) and so on....

- Ritual Mastery: you learned to cast any spell as ritual. rituals above level 5 take 1 hour to perform.

Hiya.

I guess the point I was trying to make was this: My version of "Epic" would be in what the common populace would recognize the PC as being "epic". Having a Proficiency Bonus go from +6 to +9 is simply not going to be noticeable by the average commoner. It needs to have commoners go "Wow!", in stead of "Well, duh...of course he's a good fighter".

(NOTE: This is the third take on me trying to write this down...it's really hard for me to explain the feeling I'm having for what I see "epic" as being...but here it goes!)

Visual. Epic things should be noticeably visual to the average commoner. Stuff that makes a character unique, even to another equal level character of the same race and class. In this way, Epic stuff should be racially based, and also unique to the individual character based on all the stuff they did and experienced in order to get to Epic Level. Serious...and I mean serious...DM consultation would be required. No simply choosing an ability from a list and then telling the DM "This is what I took". It's something that can't be taught or learned...it simply happens.

A Tiefling, for example, that had a penchant for fire/flame based magic who fought back the army of the Ice Jarls of Frostpeaks, who slew the monsterous Icy Arch-Demon Manzaakor, who saved the entire country of Jungleopia from the eruption of Mount Kami by quelling it's mighty liquid-fire...well, change his Resistance to fire to Immunity to fire. Also give his skin the surface look of coal, and as he gets angry or casts magic, his skin starts to look like burning coals...when he's casting more powerful magics, he is wreathed in flame (1d4 damage to those touching/grappling with him).

Epic Tasks and Epic Failures, for Little Reward. The stakes should be raised significantly with any character who hits Epic level. Gods, arch-devils, demon lords...those are the foes the epic character needs to deal with. They can not avoid them. They will be called to task by such beings on a more or less constant basis. These tasks will, at minimum, require no less than the completion of 3 impossible tasks by lunchtime. Success simply means nobody notices what almost happened (Phil the farmer drinks some tea on his front porch, Bella has to drag her blacksmith husband home from the bar...again..., life continues as normal for everyone). Failure means that EVERYONE notices what happened (a 1,000 foot pit of chaos swallows the castle and center of town and 10,000 hell-spawn pour forth, destroying everything in a 14 mile radius). In the end, the PC might get a "Nice job! Thanks!" from the deity that tasked them with it (or the cold shoulder if he failed).

Setting Out on The Path. On that note, I think gaining XP after 20th level should be a choice. You don't have to. You can freeze your XP as soon as you hit 20th. However, once you do decide to gain xp after 20th, you can't stop. You are set on your path to epicness...with all the good and bad stuff that goes with it. You, as an Epic-level character, pretty much accept that you are a pawn of greater powers and you have little "choice" in what you want to do. After all, it rarely ends well for Epic characters, and their lives during their "epicness" generally sucks for everyone around them. Deal with it.

Bottom Line. Guidelines for epic stuff, but virtually no hard and fast 'rules'. Noe "Epic Feats", no "Epic Skills", no "Epic Spells", etc. When you hit Epic level stuff, you've pretty much moved out of the realm of "normal rules for all the normal folks of the world". The rules change for Epic stuff. Uniqueness is the key; no cookie-cut "I take this ability" or "I have that bonus". Each and every Epic level character should be totally unique to the character and the campaign environment he grew up in. Every 'ability thing' an Epic level character has should have to be explained to a new DM or other Player...there should be no "Oh, I have X; it's on pg YY of Book Z". So I guess a book about Epic levelness would be all about guidelines and how to 'create' Epic stuff for your campaign (in case you are wondering, it should be a "DM" book...not a "Player" book).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

In the past, "Epic" has always meant "the same, but with bigger numbers." I find that supremely boring. In my opinion, the only time D&D got the right idea about high-level campaigns was in the BECMI Immortal set: i.e. PCs start again at the bottom, but with a different, larger frame of reference.

Nachti said:

We are talking here about an extension to level 1-20. Twenty is just a capstone in your brain.

What i want to say.... the philosophy of balancing things will stay the same.

- ability scores are still capped at 20.
- armor class "might" raise by max 1-3 points
- there wont be an automatic way for ascension through leveling

My bet on levels past 20:

- no spell slot progression for casters
- no sneak attack for rogues
- no extrattack (4) for fighters
- no rage damage increase for barbarians

- hitpoint and profiency progression continues

Prof. Bonus
21th +7 Legendary Feature
22th +7
23th +7 Legendary Feature
24th +7
25th +8 Legendary Feature
26th +8
27th +8 Legendary Feature
28th +8
29th +9 Legendary Feature
30th +9

Legendary Features:
Death Blow, Ritual Mastery, Spell Capacity, Persistent Effect (Spell), Legendary Spell, Chosen of God (any) and so on....

- Ritual Mastery: you learned to cast any spell as ritual. rituals above level 5 take 1 hour to perform.

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I see it like this as well. 4e style epic destiny's with 3e's epic in design with big features. The features don't follow a set path for each epic class either. No more attacks, spell progression, or sneak attack,

The "lower epic" features would scale and be rather minor. You just past 20th level so you should be pretty powerful as is. Would you hit level 27+, they you start getting "Screw the rules, I'm epic" stuff.

For example

Archmage: d6 HD
21th +7 Spell Knowledge: Gain a spell known or add 3 spells to your spellbook
22th +7 Spell Knowledge
23th +7 Spell Knowledge
24th +7 Ability Score Increase (Still cannot exceed 20)
25th +8 Spell Knowledge
26th +8 Ability Score Increase
27th +8 Arcane Spirit: Once per day when you drop to 0hp, you can become a special ghost. In ghost form, you may cast spells up to the 5th level but must stay within 30ft of your body. After taking a short rest, your ghost can reunite with your body provided it is intact and make death saving throws.
28th +8 Spell Knowledge
29th +9 Spell Knowledge
30th +9 Archspell: Once per day, when you cast a spell, all damage dice dealt by it is maximized.
...
40th +11 High Arcana

So an archmage would first get simply a bunch of spells. Stuff to help him or her fight ancient dragons and titans. Such foes but still mortal foes. Then they get Arcane Spirit which is "+1 life" each day. At 40th level, they can get High Arcana special features based on their class. Sorcerers gain more Metamagic and upgraded them. Warlocks get a second Pact boon. Etc.

The Mirrorball Man said:

In the past, "Epic" has always meant "the same, but with bigger numbers." I find that supremely boring. In my opinion, the only time D&D got the right idea about high-level campaigns was in the BECMI Immortal set: i.e. PCs start again at the bottom, but with a different, larger frame of reference.

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The "frame of reference" is mostly about the fiction, so can be developed regardless of the "numbers".

But I don't see why starting again at the bottom is intrinsically more interesting than continuing to grow the numbers. Unless the goal is to keep the arithmetic simple, which is fine but more of a technical consideration that a matter of deep flavour.

pemerton said:

But I don't see why starting again at the bottom is intrinsically more interesting than continuing to grow the numbers. Unless the goal is to keep the arithmetic simple, which is fine but more of a technical consideration that a matter of deep flavour.

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By definition, growing the numbers adds no flavor whatsoever. I think there is a huge difference between "You become something else" and "You're the same but BIGGER" and the former sounds much more interesting to me.

The Mirrorball Man said:

I think there is a huge difference between "You become something else" and "You're the same but BIGGER" and the former sounds much more interesting to me.

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If the "something else" is defined by new (smaller) numbers, then I don't see a very big difference.

If the "something else" is defined by story elements and fiction, then that can be done regardless of any change in numbers.

For instance, in most versions of D&D a Prince of Hell has bigger numbers than a (say) 10th level PC. Allowing a PC to become a Prince of Hell looks potentially interesting to me, even if the PC's numbers also continue to grow on a par with what a Prince of Hell's numbers would typically look like.

Astrosicebear said:

The DMG may or may not touch on levels above 20th.

How would you handle EPIC design? How would you balance simplicity, feel, power?

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Do you mean unbounded level progression?

I think it's going to be tricky with relation to bounded accuracy, because while it might be fine to cap the proficiency bonus at +6 for attacks and saving throws, I don't really think it would be fine for skills.

That's because I expect epic characters to do epic tasks: swim up a waterfall, jump down a chasm, survive a year in the desert, climb a glacier, hear a butterfly passing by, intimidate a dragon...

Perhaps I'd just remove bounded accuracy anyway: continue the progression of proficiency bonus regularly, and let ability scores increase past 20 (although it doesn't necessarily mean to remove the cap, maybe just to increase the cap gradually).

What is difficult, is that everything else in 5e depends on class and doesn't follow a regular pattern: each class has its own rate of acquiring feats/ability increases vs class features vs subclass features. Maybe after level 20, this progression can become the same for everyone, and "epic feats" can be designed like in 3e to acquire new abilities (although I think the 3e epic rules were generally regarded as unsuccessful).