Doctor Who s8e12: Death in Heaven [spoilers]

Nellisir · Nov 10, 2014

Jester Canuck said:
Because she was the control freak that would push the Doctor, getting him to do things he wouldn't otherwise. Like try and go to the afterlife to save her boyfriend.

That's what I got out of it too. She would push the Doctor. Push and push and push. I'm not sure it's "weak", but it could've been stronger.

I like that she wasn't a milksop of a companion, and I might argue that her pushing pushed him out of the black hole he was in and into realizing who he was.

tomBitonti · Nov 10, 2014

I thought there were some nice moments.

The death of the scientist was odd: Odd to discard a character after presenting them in that much detail. Adds to the poignancy, but, detracts from the story telling. All you get out of it is how nasty Mistress is.

From a dramatic storytelling point of view, the business with Danny's emotions was a train wreck. Either it is significant, or its not. They tried to have it both ways, and as a result the story point doesn't work.

Clara seems to rebound a little too quickly. But, that is TV for you, where tragedies are resolved in a blink. A person could be completely devastated and need months to recover from such a loss.

I do wonder why the Doctor responded the way he did after visiting Gallifrey. Because he can't go back? Or won't? Something about Gallifrey perhaps?

Oh, and the security on the Mistress (and the guards). Not nearly the worst every, but pretty terrible. They didn't search her? And, who uses those sorts of hand cuffs anymore? And wouldn't you restrain her in several different ways? And, wouldn't the guards prevent the scientist from approaching? Seems like standing orders for a secured prisoner. And why not call for help after the threat was made? So much wrong that my brain hurts ...

Thx!

TomB

trappedslider · Nov 10, 2014

tomBitonti said:
I do wonder why the Doctor responded the way he did after visiting Gallifrey. Because he can't go back? Or won't? Something about Gallifrey perhaps?

I thought it was implied that the MAster lied to the Doctor about Gallifrey's location

Bagpuss · Nov 10, 2014

I suspect Clara is pregnant one of the post-its on her bookcase last week was "three months", it's the only way to explain the Danny Pink lookalike at the end of time. Well unless they bring Danny back from the dead... which considering the end of the episode they may very well do.

Bagpuss · Nov 10, 2014

tomBitonti said:
The death of the scientist was odd: Odd to discard a character after presenting them in that much detail. Adds to the poignancy, but, detracts from the story telling. All you get out of it is how nasty Mistress is.

If you watch Doctor Who Extra, that is exactly why they did it. Just to hit home how nasty the Mistress is. Moffart said to do that they needed/wanted to throw a character the audience liked under a bus, unfortunately it was Osgood.

From a dramatic storytelling point of view, the business with Danny's emotions was a train wreck. Either it is significant, or its not. They tried to have it both ways, and as a result the story point doesn't work.

Well they can, they made you think his emotions were important, and in fact in a sense they were, they are what made the promise happen. The point was with love even after all the hormones (the emotion) have gone there is still something left.

Clara seems to rebound a little too quickly. But, that is TV for you, where tragedies are resolved in a blink. A person could be completely devastated and need months to recover from such a loss.

Seriously? She's British, a relative dies and you go to work the next day. You put on a brave face, especially in public. She met the Doctor in a coffee shop (perhaps even for that reason).

I do wonder why the Doctor responded the way he did after visiting Gallifrey. Because he can't go back? Or won't? Something about Gallifrey perhaps?

Because he got his hopes up and it wasn't there.

Richards · Nov 10, 2014

Here's where I'm confused: Missy's cyber-control bracelet. She gives it to the Doctor, he tosses it to Danny, Danny uses it to command the Cybermen to fly up with him into the clouds and self-destruct, destroying the clouds and their Cyber-pollen. Okay, so far so good. But in my mind, the cyber-control bracelet should then be destroyed at that point. But no, Danny's still got it in the afterlife (and at this point, which afterlife is he in? - actual Heaven or back in the Nethersphere?) and uses it to communicate with Clara and send back the boy he killed. And the boy arrives in Clara's apartment wearing the cyber-control bracelet, because the Doctor later spots Clara wearing it in the coffee shop and deduces that Danny made it back from the afterlife intact as he had anticipated.

So, all of the Cybermen who self-destructed upon Danny's orders - are their memories and consciousness back in the Nethersphere? And if so, are they in there as Cybermen? (Danny Pink showed up, originally, in the clothes he was wearing when he died. And since they were "wearing" Cyberman bodies when they died this second time....)

Johnathan

Remus Lupin · Nov 10, 2014

Watching the episode again, I see I missed a couple of things in that final scene between the Doctor and Clara and that make me realized that, yes, she was referring to adult Danny when she said "Danny and I will be fine." I had missed the Doctor's noticing the bracelet and jumping to the conclusion that Danny had made it back.

Nevertheless, I'll still put money on Clara being pregnant, if for no other reason than I don't think Moffett would drop "future time traveling Danny" in front of us, kill off Danny, and then leave that plot thread dangling. Yes, "time can be rewritten," but this is about plot and story. If that particular angle were to be rewritten, it should have factored into the story somehow, or should never have been raised to begin with. Clara's descendent could have looked like anyone. I don't think that he looked like Danny just by accident.

Bagpuss · Nov 10, 2014

Richards said:
But in my mind, the cyber-control bracelet should then be destroyed at that point. But no, Danny's still got it in the afterlife (and at this point, which afterlife is he in? - actual Heaven or back in the Nethersphere?) and uses it to communicate with Clara and send back the boy he killed. And the boy arrives in Clara's apartment wearing the cyber-control bracelet, because the Doctor later spots Clara wearing it in the coffee shop and deduces that Danny made it back from the afterlife intact as he had anticipated.

Yeah it makes very little sense that bit, for example what is Missy doing in the Nethersphere talking to the AI construct and welcome some people, if it is just a datacore? Why does she vapourise him in the same way she does everyone else if he is just a data construct and not a real person?

Ryujin · Nov 10, 2014

Richards said:
Here's where I'm confused: Missy's cyber-control bracelet. She gives it to the Doctor, he tosses it to Danny, Danny uses it to command the Cybermen to fly up with him into the clouds and self-destruct, destroying the clouds and their Cyber-pollen. Okay, so far so good. But in my mind, the cyber-control bracelet should then be destroyed at that point. But no, Danny's still got it in the afterlife (and at this point, which afterlife is he in? - actual Heaven or back in the Nethersphere?) and uses it to communicate with Clara and send back the boy he killed. And the boy arrives in Clara's apartment wearing the cyber-control bracelet, because the Doctor later spots Clara wearing it in the coffee shop and deduces that Danny made it back from the afterlife intact as he had anticipated.

So, all of the Cybermen who self-destructed upon Danny's orders - are their memories and consciousness back in the Nethersphere? And if so, are they in there as Cybermen? (Danny Pink showed up, originally, in the clothes he was wearing when he died. And since they were "wearing" Cyberman bodies when they died this second time....)

Johnathan

To me, the Cybermen self destructing was the weakest point. Cybermen fly up into the air and explode, creating Cyber Pollen that's eventually going to turn everyone into Cybermen. Cybermen fly up into the air and explode, destroying the Cyber Pollen that the original exploding Cybermen created.

I'm pretty sure that The Doctor is well aware that Clara was lying to him, in the coffee shop. The "never trust a hug" line is what makes me believe that.

Bagpuss · Nov 10, 2014

Richards said:
But in my mind, the cyber-control bracelet should then be destroyed at that point. But no, Danny's still got it in the afterlife (and at this point, which afterlife is he in? - actual Heaven or back in the Nethersphere?) and uses it to communicate with Clara and send back the boy he killed. And the boy arrives in Clara's apartment wearing the cyber-control bracelet, because the Doctor later spots Clara wearing it in the coffee shop and deduces that Danny made it back from the afterlife intact as he had anticipated.

The whole Nethersphere thing is a complete mess, if it is a Matrix Data Slice and Seb is just an interface, how is Missy in there? Also why does she disintegrate Seb when he could just be deleted? How would a physical object like the bracelet get there?

Although to be fair The Matrix on Gallifrey did have a method for physical beings to enter the Matrix (the legendary Seventh Door), rather than just their consciousness.

So lets say the Nethersphere duplicates the consciousness of the person including how they perceive themselves (clothes, etc) and all the Cybermen get transferred back there when the blew up. Danny perceives himself to have the bracelet, the bracelet acts like the Key of Rassilon (opening the Seventh Door), allowing Missy into the Matrix physically, but perhaps it could also allow someone stored in the Matrix to become physical.

The bracelet could just be a symbolic code, the actually technology be in the Nethersphere itself. So he gives the bracelet to the boy and he steps out.

Doctor Who s8e12: Death in Heaven [spoilers]

Nellisir

Hero

tomBitonti

Adventurer

trappedslider

Legend

Bagpuss

Legend

Bagpuss

Legend

Richards

Legend

Remus Lupin

Adventurer

Bagpuss

Legend

Ryujin

Legend

Bagpuss

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