Travelling through a wormhole in space

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I am completely unsurprised and unfazed by that. We are talking about taking apart spacetime for our own use, after all. "Big", in purely human physical terms, is not really an issue by comparison. :)
True enough. Though natural ones, if they exist, are likely to be small with strong time dilation. And neither traversable nor stable. So who knows? This stuff is in some ways more speculative than the 5D stuff you mention below.

Yes. To my knowledge, no 5+D model has made a practically testable prediction. Thus theories that use them are pretty speculative. Thus, let us not *expect* wormholes that don't use exotic matter.
Sure, there were a bunch made in the late '90s that probably could have been detected by now through measurements of the gravitational inverse square law (ie, Newton's law) over short distances. Measurements have been made since that have put stronger limits on those models. There are also 5+ D models that could have effects at the LHC.

There are also 5D physics models related to 4D physics through dualities.

Since you've done more of the reading recently than I now: is that "not connected" in an absolute topological sense? Or is it "not connected" in the causal, "won't be in each other's light cone even though there's continuous spacetime between points" sense?
Well, I'm not really on top of things like topics I do work on, but it's in the topological sense for any explicit metric I've seen yet.
 

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freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Well, I'm not really on top of things like topics I do work on, but it's in the topological sense for any explicit metric I've seen yet.
I wrote that very quickly before I had to leave work --- to clarify, the two "sides" of the wormhole are topologically disconnected except by the wormhole. In other words, if the wormhole(s) disappeared, they'd be disconnected (in the topological sense), and travel from one to the other would be impossible even at FTL speeds. That doesn't mean there can't be a wormhole that connects two points on a single space (that would be topologically connected w/o the wormhole), but I haven't seen that written down in math anywhere.
 


Mishihari Lord

First Post
I wrote that very quickly before I had to leave work --- to clarify, the two "sides" of the wormhole are topologically disconnected except by the wormhole. In other words, if the wormhole(s) disappeared, they'd be disconnected (in the topological sense), and travel from one to the other would be impossible even at FTL speeds. That doesn't mean there can't be a wormhole that connects two points on a single space (that would be topologically connected w/o the wormhole), but I haven't seen that written down in math anywhere.

That seems an odd way to approach the problem to me. Instead of looking at just one improbable thing, wormholes, you're positing two, wormholes and parallel universes. It would seem simpler to work with just one unproven impossibility/improbability at a time. But then, I'm not a physicist. I only needed up to Quantum 2, EM fields, and some specialized stuff for EE.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
That seems an odd way to approach the problem to me. Instead of looking at just one improbable thing, wormholes, you're positing two, wormholes and parallel universes. It would seem simpler to work with just one unproven impossibility/improbability at a time. But then, I'm not a physicist. I only needed up to Quantum 2, EM fields, and some specialized stuff for EE.

It's a matter of the math, I'd expect, not having worked it out myself. It's often easier to write down and work with a toy model that's less realistic. For example, the full spacetime of a real black hole like the ones we have evidence for should include (at early times) a star or some other matter that collapses to create the black hole. But that's a very messy situation. It's much easier to write down a solution describing a black hole that just sits there unchanging forever with nothing else around. Incidentally, black holes like that also have two distinct "universes" that can only access each other IIRC by FTL travel through the black hole. But that toy mathematical description (the Schwarzschild metric) is also very useful as a close approximation for the metric around any roughly spherical object --- it works very well for the sun, for example. I'm sure you dealt with the same kind of thing in the physics classes you mention you've taken.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
True enough. Though natural ones, if they exist, are likely to be small with strong time dilation. And neither traversable nor stable.

If they aren't stable, then natural ones would not last long enough for us to ever observe them, except in terms of an energy burst across teh cosmos when they collapse, so that's a bit moot.

Well, I'm not really on top of things like topics I do work on, but it's in the topological sense for any explicit metric I've seen yet.

Well, in that case, these aren't really wormholes in the sense most people expect. This is effectively, "travel to a different universe," not ,"travel a distance in your own universe". I then becomes impossible to have a long route through normal space, and a short one through a wormhole. But, I've heard good folks more recent than Thorne speak about such... so I think there's something missing here.

And it that raises a whole lot of questions - like how a distinct and separate space just happens to have physical laws compatible enough with those in our space to support the connection? And how would this be different from a bottleneck region in our own universe?
 
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freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
If they aren't stable, then natural ones would not last long enough for us to ever observe them, except in terms of an energy burst across teh cosmos when they collapse, so that's a bit moot.
Well, true, but keep in mind that the "artificial" ones we're talking about (like the metric Kip Thorne and collaborators used for visualization in Interstellar) aren't stable either. I do believe there are stable ones, but they're not actually easy to find in the literature. My guess is they're complicated and require more or weirder "exotic matter" to make. And we also have to remember that this exotic matter may not exist. And that Morris & Thorne proved that at least a large class of wormholes are automatically time machines and therefore may be impossible. It's conjectured after all that quantum gravity obeys a form of temporal cosmic censorship.

Well, in that case, these aren't really wormholes in the sense most people expect. This is effectively, "travel to a different universe," not ,"travel a distance in your own universe". I then becomes impossible to have a long route through normal space, and a short one through a wormhole. But, I've heard good folks more recent than Thorne speak about such... so I think there's something missing here.

True. The rigorous but general definition of a wormhole seems to be something like this: if you consider spherical coordinates in flat space, concentric spheres around the origin shrink in surface area as you approach that origin. In a wormhole space(time), those concentric spheres first shrink and then expand as you move "toward the origin." The expanding region is when you've gone "past the origin" and into the "second universe." But with this definition, there doesn't even have to be a full second universe. The whole thing could just be a funny-shaped dimple on a single spacetime.

But keep in mind that I'm talking about just the mathematical formulae people write down because they're simple enough to give exactly. People draw pictures that basically fold over "universe 2" and glue it to "universe 1," which gives you a tunnel between two points on the same space. That's the more colloquial expectation for a wormhole. I just don't think it's feasible to write a formula for a spacetime like that. On the other hand, I don't see a reason that a mathematical description of such a space can't exist --- it'd just be very ugly to write down and not as enlightening as these "toy wormholes."

And it that raises a whole lot of questions - like how a distinct and separate space just happens to have physical laws compatible enough with those in our space to support the connection? And how would this be different from a bottleneck region in our own universe?

Well, even the "two-universe" wormholes are really a single universe/spacetime as long as the wormhole is there. It holds the whole spacetime together. Another simplification of all the wormhole spacetimes I've found written down today is that they are time-independent, meaning they sit there forever unchanging. As for physical laws being compatible, I suppose that depends what you mean. But it's a premature question in some ways, since even these toy models rely either on exotic matter that may not be possible (ie, would lead to inconsistency of any theory that contains it) or else very particular speculative higher-dimensional physics.

I'm not sure quite what you mean by a bottleneck region. If you can elaborate, I may be able to answer.
 

Bullgrit

Adventurer
wormholes have never been observed, of course - they're just a solution to an equation
Can someone explain this? There is some equation about the universe where the answer is, "There must be essentially useless holes between points in space."

Bullgrit
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Can someone explain this? There is some equation about the universe where the answer is, "There must be essentially useless holes between points in space."

Not, "there must be.". More like, "there can be." These structures in spacetime are allowed by the math.

And, anything not strictly forbidden, we are going to think about endlessly, and base science fiction stories upon. :)
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Well, true, but keep in mind that the "artificial" ones we're talking about (like the metric Kip Thorne and collaborators used for visualization in Interstellar) aren't stable either. I do believe there are stable ones, but they're not actually easy to find in the literature. My guess is they're complicated and require more or weirder "exotic matter" to make.

My understanding is that most solutions are unstable, unless you apply exotic matter to stabilize them.

There are a class of solutions in 5+D space that may be stable without exotic matter - they may be stabilized by quantum effects.

I'm not sure quite what you mean by a bottleneck region. If you can elaborate, I may be able to answer.

You hit upon the same basic idea with, "The whole thing could just be a funny-shaped dimple on a single spacetime."

I think it may be more clear to say it that it doesn't match the colloquial conception of a wormhole unless it makes the spacetime to be multiply connected (as opposed to simply connected, in a topological sense). Leave out the singularities like black holes, and if the space with the wormhole is still simply connected, that wormhole is just an oddly shaped dimple, as you put it. The wormhole may locally have different curvature than the rest of the spacetime, but from a practical standpoint... who cares?


As for physical laws being compatible, I suppose that depends what you mean. But it's a premature question in some ways, since even these toy models rely either on exotic matter that may not be possible (ie, would lead to inconsistency of any theory that contains it) or else very particular speculative higher-dimensional physics.

The question becomes very important when you start considering artificially creating a wormhole. A natural wormhole, as you've described them, is really just an area with slightly different curvature between two more normallly curved regions - one can imagine those developing naturally as the spacetime originally formed.

But, when you consider an artificial wormhole - if you cannot connect to your own spacetime, then you must connect to another one - and then the question of how that can be possible when that other spacetime cannot be assumed to have similar properties, becomes a bigger question. We could find that even if we have exotic matter, we cannot create such a thing because there's nothing compatible to connect to!
 

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