D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

Sadras

Legend
The Wall of the Faithless came up in our campaign thanks to a Mystaran (a bard) dying in the FR world. The player's new character is returning to the world, after some time, as a cleric of Kelemvor. Kelemvor seeing potential in the soul, brought him back to stop another NPC cleric from resurrecting A'tar the Merciless. Kelemvor being very much against the return of A'tar.

The new PC will have all the old memories of the previous PC (bard) but his disposition will be a lot more sombre and reserved, being now a cleric of Kelemvor.
 
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Changing the opinion of Kelemvor sounds like a great epic level adventure!

Player characters have a long history of changing the status quo. Discovering that the faithless are being put into a wall and setting out on a perilous journey to convince Kelemvor to change is exactly the kind of thing high level adventures might want to do. Especially those who are concerned about their fate in the afterlife. Heck, I'm reminded of Mask of the Betrayer.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
The problem here is that you all concider the wall of the faithless a punishment. but thtas the thing. it isnt a punishment. the people who didnt care about the gods to a degree where their aftelife or their immortal soul were irrelevant to them, get exactly that when they go to the fugue plane. they get nothingness. in the wall you merge and you lose yourslef. since you didnt care about afterlife at all, thats what you get. a gray blandness until your soul gets absorded.
for the people who dont care about the gods and aftelife and tthe planes etc, that would actually be theri personal heaven. sure for some it would be hell. imagine a barbarian going to the fugue plane and becoming a wall. but for the man who lived a quest nondescript life and wanted a quiet nondescript death, the wall is that

No, it is a punishment, because otherwise those souls would go to the plane they are aligned with. The whole wall is an extortion racket from the FR deities to suck every last ounce of power from the inhabitants of the Realms.
 

The thing to keep in mind when dealing with gods, especially the 'good ones', is that they're playing a game.

Mortals are their pieces, and the local reality is their board.

Gods, DnD style ones anyway, almost never battle one another directly outside of creation/dawn of history stories, and there's always a litany of reasons for this, some quite creative and logical, but the end result is still that most divine conflicts are resolved (or more precisely not) by urging, poking, or outright ordering one's mortals to mess up the other guys mortals. This is basically why orc hordes are a thing, Gruumsh hates just about everyone and the feeling is mostly mutual so gruumsh's followers (orcs mostly) spend a lot of their time gathering up into big crusades to go kill everyone else, or recovering from their last attempt to do so.

As such mortals who opt out of the game are useless to the gods, or at least far lower value, this makes them low priority for divine aid or consideration.

This is compounded by the tendency to present 'good' deities as being the ones who more scrupulously follow the rules of the game or advocate for them to be followed, never scheming to massively tilt the whole thing in their favor, and just generally being more content with their 'rightful' slice of the pie.

This creates a systemic issue where despite often being labeled with a 'good' or 'chaotic' alignment the vast majority of non-evil deities end up being either lawful neutral, or true neutral, in practice. Basically they'll watch out for their own, but everyone else can go hang. Although some will be more diplomatic and/or consistent about it than others.

Now this can be obscured some since most deities are open to new recruits so they tend to try to appeal to people on some level, but once a soul dies it generally can't be recruited to a new faction, barring shenanigans.

So even 'good' deities, maybe even especially 'good' deities, are massively unincentivized to give a damn about souls that aren't going to them except in the case of how to make said souls come to them rather than other deities. It's more efficient to try to snatch souls that would otherwise go to your competition since that not only nets you extra souls, but denies them to an enemy as well.
 

The easiest solution is to assume that the devils aren't the only ones recruiting from the godless dead. Seems like a good idea for archons, modrons (especially if you are going to override their minds with modron programming anyway), and demons. Big cosmic armies can always use more warm (?) bodies to throw at the other big cosmic armies. No reason for most of those groups to advertise on the material planes, especially since said advertising may make relations with their neighbors back on the home Outer Plane unpleasant; thus there has been no reason for any PC's to have ever heard about it.

Then the only ones who go to the Wall are militant atheists. Make a statement, become a brick.
 

I'm not sure atheism is the right word when dealing with the forgotten realms. I mean it implies a disbelief in gods, which in that 'verse probably has more to do with trauma, mental illness, or extreme indoctrination than anything resembling a personal decision.

Anti-theists? As in opposed to gods in general?
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
I'm not sure atheism is the right word when dealing with the forgotten realms. I mean it implies a disbelief in gods, which in that 'verse probably has more to do with trauma, mental illness, or extreme indoctrination than anything resembling a personal decision.

Anti-theists? As in opposed to gods in general?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alatrism
Gods are not worshipped, because of various reasons (not considered worthy, won't affect anything, etc.)

or

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism
"Direct Hatred of the gods."

Atheism in most D&D worlds is definitely not a correct term - though it still could apply in a place like, say, Eberron, where outer planar beings swear up and down that gods exist, but can't offer a shred of proof...
 

squibbles

Adventurer
My main issue here is that this is basically a punishment in the lore for any character whose player doesn't want to bother wading through the massive list of deities and picking one that they like. No matter how noble their deeds, no matter how many lives they save, no matter how much good they do, no matter how many evil plots they stop, a character can't get a good afterlife without checking a box on a form that says "Prayed to a god sometimes." The BEST a character can hope for is to be a guide, which basically means escorting others to paradises that they'll never actually be a part of.

I mean, the first thing I want to do when hearing about this wall is to have an adventure all about destroying it and slapping the collective pantheon in its face for thinking this was a good idea. Even supposedly "good" deities like Mystara and Ilmater are totally on board with punishing everyone who doesn't massage their egos on a regular basis.

Discovering that the faithless are being put into a wall and setting out on a perilous journey to convince Kelemvor to change is exactly the kind of thing high level adventures might want to do. Especially those who are concerned about their fate in the afterlife.

Respectfully, I think this point of view is a failure of imagination.

Moral propositions in the forgotten realms-verse come from the gods, and the gods exist because they have worshipers (since the time of troubles anyway). The reason why the paradise for people who worship Torm is peaceful, orderly, and perfectly beautiful, whereas the paradise for people who worship Odin is a realm of elemental chaos and violent personal heroism, is that those places are physical manifestations of the principles to which those gods and their worshipers assign moral value.

The strange thing in my mind is that any people in the forgotten realms would actually end up in the wall of the faithless.

Faith is a weird word to use for it. The gods clearly exist and, not only do they exist, they actually respond to intercessory prayer. Think about it, if you believed in the moral worth of violent personal heroism, why the heck wouldn't you worship Odin? I think a forgotten realms character who learned about the wall of the faithless would be puzzled, not morally indignant. After all, how could someone fail to worship a god? It's easy, it's potentially rewarding, and it has no appreciable cost.

In any case, if the principal concern is a PCs religious convictions, I'd suggest you simply handwave it, i.e. "my PC prays to a minor god that represents his/her beliefs," and ignore it for the rest of the game.

I'm not sure atheism is the right word when dealing with the forgotten realms. I mean it implies a disbelief in gods, which in that 'verse probably has more to do with trauma, mental illness, or extreme indoctrination than anything resembling a personal decision.

Anti-theists? As in opposed to gods in general?

Exactly right. Atheism follows from logical arguments based on observations of our reality. In a different reality with different observations, like gods that regularly murder people with lightning bolts, Atheism becomes a rather silly point of view.

A character being against the whole system of gods and outer planes strikes me as weird as well. Consider: If given a choice between knowing that your prayers would land you in your preferred afterlife--and that everyone else gets the same deal--or having no idea what happens to you after you die (potentially you just cease to exist), why would you prefer the latter? Would you advocate the latter to the extent that you risked being killed with lightning bolts and having your soul imprisoned in a torture wall for all eternity?
 

squibbles

Adventurer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alatrism
Gods are not worshipped, because of various reasons (not considered worthy, won't affect anything, etc.)

In the FR, this point of view would be more sensible than atheism, but only if its consequences were unknown.


This seems like a belief an FR person might plausibly hold as a result of misfortunate life events. It seems like the only way, apart from ignorance, that anybody would get into the wall of the faithless.

But I think almost everybody in the setting would be some flavor of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism
 

Well the fact that torilian gods are almost universally tyrannical forces that are a malus upon civilization from the mortal perspective probably gets a few people into the wall each generation.

I mentioned this earlier, even the 'good' gods are basically toying with mortals, largely to sate their own agendas and egos.

I suspect people who realize this end up in the wall, especially if they try to spread that realization or insist upon a more equitable model, or make credible attempts at offing deities that would prevent them from being reincarnated or replaced. Basically anyone who tries to disrupt the gods' overall business model.
 

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