D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[MonsterEnvy]

All petioners lose their memories by default. A few favored ones gain them back. Once a soul is distelled enough it merges with its plane or deity.

This is the case for Planescape not necessarily for the realms.

 

[RotGrub]

Very interesting. And a perfect example of how I handle 'canon.' There are a great many contradictions and such among the different sources (novels, sourcebooks, games, etc.). In terms of their 'in-game' use, they are all stories that are valid as news and such, but the actual facts may or may not be the same. According to written canon, the only way to enter the Fugue plain is the soul of somebody who died, or through a portal from Hell or the Abyss. This contradicts that, but that works fine since the mortal Realmsfolk really don't (and largely can't) know.

I liken them to news reports from different channels, or a better description would be eyewitness accounts from different people, which can vary widely and may be colored by hidden agendas, etc.

Just to be fair - NEVERWINTER NIGHTS 2 POSSIBLE SPOILER ALERT

But the idea of continuing crusades from within the planes, plus Kelemvor indicating that the Wall is essential to the order of the universe is very interesting. Although I'm sure some will point out that by this lore Myrkul created the wall, that occurred before Ao tied the Gods power directly to their followers, so that changed the nature of how the afterlife worked and the nature of the faithless.

Also note that the description in Faiths and Avatars says that 'those that firmly deny any faith' not just somebody who doesn't practice a faith will end up in the Wall. It also identifies all of the regions of the Realms, including Kara-Tur and Maztica, and their pantheons. While the 'Realms' pantheon is not universally known or venerated, all Realmsfolk have the same afterlife in terms of the Fugue Plain. But it calls out a few specific examples, such as Chult with two Powers, and a collection of spirits primarily regarding nature, as well as the philosophy of the lands of Durpar, Var the Golden and Estegund believing in a single Power (The One). In each of those regions, the particular pantheons and religions have dominion. Many of those, particularly in Kara-Tur, are more like philosophies than religions. Their perception of Gods or Powers is very different.

Yet they do not end up in the wall. Instead they go to their own afterlife - presumably via the Fugue Plain like all the other petitioners, and are gathered by agents of their faith, many of which may be nature spirits or something along those lines for religions or philosophies that don't venerate Powers.

So avoiding the Wall is based on faith not toward a specific Power (although it can be), but it also appears that it must be a faith of sufficient power itself. That is, it requires the collective power of many people who believe in the same thing. But a group large enough (how large?), most likely along with Ao's approval, apparently has the power to create their own afterlife to join after the visit to the Fugue Plain. Part of this approval would probably (although I'm not sure it's entirely necessary) provide a portion of the physical Realms as under their domain. So perhaps a unified religion or philosophy within a specific and significant enough geographical region is enough.

Ilbranteloth

The Lore is great in his regard. Why would anyone want to change it? The Wall is a very well established feature of the Realms, like it or not.

 

[Hussar]

Orcus was punished. He was some evil soul that found himself going to the Abyss. Were he was transformed into a vile little creature and lost his personality and memory destroying whoever he used to be. He then proceeded to be one of the lucky vile little demons that clawed his way up to power and became a unique and powerful being. But nothing remains of the mortal who Orcus used to be.

In Hell it's worse, the souls that arrive are collected by their owners and brought to that layer of their owner were they are traded around as currency. While being tortured to extract divine energy from them, Once the soul has had all of the personality and divine energy tortured out of them and nothing more can be extracted they toss the soul shell into a birthing pit were anything that may have been left is destroyed as the soul melts into a Lemure before being fished out.

Heh, it's funny. I get accused of not understanding D&D's afterlife when I say this. :/

All petioners lose their memories by default. A few favored ones gain them back. Once a soul is distelled enough it merges with its plane or deity.

Please don't mistake your Planescape canon for D&D canon. That is NOT the default. That is the default for a single setting. It's most certainly not true in Dragonlance (where we have explicit examples where it's not true - Flint Fireforge is resting comfortably under a tree waiting for his companions, for example). And it's not true in Forgotten Realms.

This is why I get so huffy about this sort of thing. Planescape fans keep bringing up Planescape canon and pretending that it applies to all settings. Planescape:Torment? Who cares? It's not a Forgotten Realms game, it has no application here.

In fact, I'm not even sure I'd argue that Orcus was an evil soul in the first place. Is there any evidence that he was anything other than something spawned in the Abyss? Tiamat isn't some lucky evil soul that became Queen of Evil Dragons. Lolth wasn't some dead elf. Heck, when Lolth was originally introduced, elves didn't even have souls. Raise Dead didn't work on them. So, it's not like they could even become a petitioner if something was even part of D&D at the time. Which it wasn't.

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[MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] - your issue with the Wall is that it's a painful process right? The oblivion part doesn't seem to bother you, or, at least, I don't recall you mentioning it. Would a simple change to the canon - being stuck in the Wall is painless not pretty much negate your character concept? If it doesn't cause pain, then it's no longer monstrously evil right? It's simply a kind of Grey or Limbo for the Faithless. (Limbo - as in a place of nothingness, not in the Great Wheel sense) Would that not cut through this Gordian Knot rather easily?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Please don't mistake your Planescape canon for D&D canon. That is NOT the default. That is the default for a single setting. It's most certainly not true in Dragonlance (where we have explicit examples where it's not true - Flint Fireforge is resting comfortably under a tree waiting for his companions, for example). And it's not true in Forgotten Realms.

This is why I get so huffy about this sort of thing. Planescape fans keep bringing up Planescape canon and pretending that it applies to all settings. Planescape:Torment? Who cares? It's not a Forgotten Realms game, it has no application here.

In fact, I'm not even sure I'd argue that Orcus was an evil soul in the first place. Is there any evidence that he was anything other than something spawned in the Abyss? Tiamat isn't some lucky evil soul that became Queen of Evil Dragons. Lolth wasn't some dead elf. Heck, when Lolth was originally introduced, elves didn't even have souls. Raise Dead didn't work on them. So, it's not like they could even become a petitioner if something was even part of D&D at the time. Which it wasn't.

I actually already said that Planescape canon is not realms canon.

Orcus was actually just an evil soul. He was given as an example of a Demon Lord who started out as a mortal soul that became a Manes and managed to claw his way to power. (A blade called the Orcus Sword from when he was a Balor is still around as well.)

Most other Demon Lords however are not mortal in origin and simply emerged from the Abyss. Demogorgon for example there. While Graz'zt's origin is unclear.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

[MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] - your issue with the Wall is that it's a painful process right? The oblivion part doesn't seem to bother you, or, at least, I don't recall you mentioning it. Would a simple change to the canon - being stuck in the Wall is painless not pretty much negate your character concept? If it doesn't cause pain, then it's no longer monstrously evil right? It's simply a kind of Grey or Limbo for the Faithless. (Limbo - as in a place of nothingness, not in the Great Wheel sense) Would that not cut through this Gordian Knot rather easily?

Actually, I think [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION]'s primary issue with the Wall lies in what he perceives as the unjust nature of an atheist who leads an otherwise good life is still sentenced to the wall since he's faithless.

My position is that unless that atheist specifically denied the existence or worthiness of the Gods, that is they actively railed against the existence or power of the pantheon, not just a single Power, they would most likely be judged on their deeds and avoid the wall by going to the domain of the Power that most closely resembled their beliefs. Although this isn't spelled out in canon (and some potentially contradicts this), I think the evidence regarding the other pantheons in the realms bear this out.

In addition, I think the very process of judgement by Kelemvor implies that one's deeds and life is taken into account. Otherwise no judgement need be made.

I think the secondary issue he has with the wall is the nature of it as punishment. But there are a lot of other potential punishments in the afterlife and nobody seems to have an issue with that.

Kelemvor's position is that there will be transparency and fair and equal judgement for the dead. He only judges those at risk of being labeled as faithless or false. But there would be no judgement if that classification was a foregone conclusion.

Having said all that, if the Powers and the very afterlife is powered by faith, and people know that (to whatever degree), then refusing to participate is a denial and against the cosmological rules (thus a 'sin'), and punishable as such. I don't think he feels this is correct, and my position is that there is a lot of room for interpretation here. As a result, while there may be some mistakes made, I think the majority of those punished in the wall are actually evil, but without a claim by the evil Powers. This is also probably a good thing, because if faith and souls are what powers the domain of the Deities, then the fewer souls that populate an evil domain, the better.

So I think I understand his position, I just don't agree completely, nor do I feel any compelling need to dismantle the wall.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Mirtek]

Please don't mistake your Planescape canon for D&D canon. That is NOT the default. That is the default for a single setting.

Plesse stop being in denial that for the longest time D&D was one big meta setting and 5e finaly having returned to this most glorious days if D&D

What happens in the settings affects the planes and what happens on the planes affects the settings.

Most other Demon Lords however are not mortal in origin and simply emerged from the Abyss. Demogorgon for example there. While Graz'zt's origin is unclear.

Kochtchie was a mortal as well

 

[RotGrub]

elves didn't even have souls. Raise Dead didn't work on them.

Raise Dead no, but Resurrection and Reincarnation certainly did. No sure why you think elves didn't have souls because Trap the Soul worked on them.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think it is best to think of the Wall as contempt of court. Anyone who has ever done anything related to courts knows that it is a bad idea to annoy the judge, and when the atheist tells Kelemvor "you ain't the judge of me", he/she get charged with contempt and stuck in the Wall. A little diplomacy and you are right back wandering the Fugue Plane. Dumping cha (for the diplomacy) and int (so you know to try diplomacy instead of "making a statement") are really bad ideas for atheist PC's....

 

[RotGrub]

I think it is best to think of the Wall as contempt of court. Anyone who has ever done anything related to courts knows that it is a bad idea to annoy the judge, and when the atheist tells Kelemvor "you ain't the judge of me", he/she get charged with contempt and stuck in the Wall. A little diplomacy and you are right back wandering the Fugue Plane. Dumping cha (for the diplomacy) and int (so you know to try diplomacy instead of "making a statement") are really bad ideas for atheist PC's....

Yes, but how exactly does one be an atheist in a world in which there IS more than enough evidence that the gods exist? Unless you're completely ignorant for some reason, you really can't be one.

As the DM in an FR campaign, I'd really have to question how much the player has thought his so called atheist character through. Without an incredible backstory I think it would be very unlikely that anyone in the FR would be an atheist. Some might hate all the gods, but that's a choice they make knowing the consequences. I'd also have to wonder why a good character wouldn't consider a good god an ally. Why would there be any reason to reject them?

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think that is what most posters are thinking of "atheists" as: people who don't think the gods are "gods", but just powerful beings that don't deserve worship. I suspect what is driving most of this thread is people's feelings on real world atheism which really isn't comparable.

As for myself, I agree that most good beings would take up the opportunity to "keep fighting the good fight" if offered that in the Fugue Plane, regardless if they thought the god was a god or not (I don't think I have read anyone arguing that the atheists think the good-aligned gods aren't good, just not gods). It seems like that is half the point of having high level archons/guardinels/eldarin. You might have to say you are cool with Tyr to get out of the Fugue Plane, but you spend your time fighting in Raziel's legions instead of singing hosanna's.....