D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

RotGrub

First Post
I think that is what most posters are thinking of "atheists" as: people who don't think the gods are "gods", but just powerful beings that don't deserve worship. I suspect what is driving most of this thread is people's feelings on real world atheism which really isn't comparable.

As for myself, I agree that most good beings would take up the opportunity to "keep fighting the good fight" if offered that in the Fugue Plane, regardless if they thought the god was a god or not (I don't think I have read anyone arguing that the atheists think the good-aligned gods aren't good, just not gods). It seems like that is half the point of having high level archons/guardinels/eldarin. You might have to say you are cool with Tyr to get out of the Fugue Plane, but you spend your time fighting in Raziel's legions instead of singing hosanna's.....

That's like saying Thor and Poseidon are not gods because they are not as powerful as the almighty. Do they really have to be as powerful as God to be a god? Seriously, that makes no sense within the context of polytheism.

I agree that Atheism isn't compatable, which makes me wonder if some people are actually interested in role playing a character that doesn't think the same way as they do. Maybe they have a hard time RPing a god following/acknowledging character because they have a hard time accepting such things. Worship seems 'icky" to them and they want no part of it.
 

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NotActuallyTim

First Post
That's like saying Thor and Poseidon are not gods because they are not as powerful as the almighty. Do they really have to be as powerful as God to be a god? Seriously, that makes no sense within the context of polytheism.

I agree that Atheism isn't compatable, which makes me wonder if some people are actually interested in role playing a character that doesn't think the same way as they do. Maybe they have a hard time RPing a god following/acknowledging character because they have a hard time accepting such things. Worship seems 'icky" to them and they want no part of it.

They're not gods because they're aren't an AI with intelligence beyond what anything else could ever be considered to have.

Sorry, did I get singularity all over your theology? :p

As for Atheism, the concept of a 'god' is fundamentally an incoherent concept. No being deserves worship, and deserving worship is a necessary prerequisite for divinity. Full stop.

Yay! Philosophy!
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I think that is what most posters are thinking of "atheists" as: people who don't think the gods are "gods", but just powerful beings that don't deserve worship. I suspect what is driving most of this thread is people's feelings on real world atheism which really isn't comparable.

As for myself, I agree that most good beings would take up the opportunity to "keep fighting the good fight" if offered that in the Fugue Plane, regardless if they thought the god was a god or not (I don't think I have read anyone arguing that the atheists think the good-aligned gods aren't good, just not gods). It seems like that is half the point of having high level archons/guardinels/eldarin. You might have to say you are cool with Tyr to get out of the Fugue Plane, but you spend your time fighting in Raziel's legions instead of singing hosanna's.....

A related thing is that some folks have indicated that they don't think the Powers are worthy of their devotion and faith. And I think that there may be some that would have that perspective in the Realms. Whether that damns you to the Wall or not, I don't know. I don't think that's enough.

But I also think the concept of worship, faith, and even acknowledgement of the Powers is very different in the Realms. They know they exist, and they know they have particular areas they control. I don't think there would be a single farmer anywhere that would feel put upon or oppressed with the concept of saying a prayer to Chauntea before planting seed.

'I'm planting my crop this year, but I'l be damned if I'm going to ask that unworthy Chauntea for help! How dare you tell me that I must believe you exist.'

Seafaring people seem to be superstitious by nature anyway, why wouldn't they invoke Umberlee's name by a simple matter of course?

That's part of why I don't think the concept that the Powers demand you worship is there either. It's a more symbiotic relationship - they need you to survive, and you need them to have an afterlife. They are busy living their cosmological life, fighting their cosmological battles. The clerics, paladins, and non-classed or other-classed clergy are the ones that do the majority of the heavy lifting in the material world. Those are the beings that the Powers are concerned with influencing.

With mortals having free will, all they can do is hope that you'll not get taken by Cyric or Bane, and that you'll end up maintaining the balance in favor of good in the afterlife. Because I think that in the general cosmology, good is the greater and more plentiful force. And the power of that cosmology is the domains of the Powers which is directly related to the number of faithful, both in mortals on Faerun, and souls living in their domains.

The Realms doesn't have the scientific knowledge or background, nor have they had a Dark Ages, or even religious wars. There isn't a need for a renaissance or the enlightenment to question the nature or need for religion or the Powers. People don't preach that 'your God doesn't exist,' they say 'mine is better.' I don't think the concept of atheism as we know it even exists on the Realms.

That's why I think the Wall is populated primarily with evil types. They don't just forsake the Gods, but their culture, their civilization entirely. It's not a 'you don't exist' because they clearly do, nor even simply 'you aren't worthy.' It must be more along the lines of actively trying to undo the very nature of the Gods, and thus the Realms itself. Essentially the endless line of people who think they can do better than the Gods, or become one themselves. Your classic power-hungry villain who's 'going to rule the world! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!'

Ilbranteloth
 

RotGrub

First Post
They're not gods because they're aren't an AI with intelligence beyond what anything else could ever be considered to have.

Sorry, did I get singularity all over your theology? :p

As for Atheism, the concept of a 'god' is fundamentally an incoherent concept. No being deserves worship, and deserving worship is a necessary prerequisite for divinity. Full stop.

Yay! Philosophy!

You picked the wrong person to attempt to confuse. :) Just be aware that according to Moores law, the singularity only has about 400 years to live (as per Lawrence Krauss). It likely can't have immortally, unless you believe in Freeman Dyson's a amorphous cloud creature. :)

In the FR, there are many gods who demand worship. There are many mortals who worship out of fear (like in the real world) and there are many who will do so for power. You could also argue that if the god is giving you something in return (spells, guidance, protection) then it just might be deserving of worship.
 

NotActuallyTim

First Post
You picked the wrong person to attempt to confuse. :) Just be aware that according to Moores law, the singularity only has about 400 years to live (as per Lawrence Krauss). It likely can't have immortally, unless you believe in Freeman Dyson's a amorphous cloud creature. :)

The singularity is definitively non-definable, so whatevs. For all we know the concept of time will be destroyed by it's very existence.

In the FR, there are many gods who demand worship. There are many mortals who worship out of fear (like in the real world) and there are many who will do so for power. You could also argue that if the god is giving you something in return (spells, guidance, protection) then it just might be deserving of worship.

The demand is irrelevant. That's not divine power, that's a market transaction. It's the worthiness that counts. :p
 



Scribe

Legend
Worthiness is only subjective if morality is.

With the hard definitions on Lawful-Chaotic and Good-Evil that we have in D&D, is this important? I mean I guess what is 'Good' to a Red Wizard, may not be 'Good' to a Dwarf? I think folks need to divorce real world bias and perception here from what would appear to be accurate in the Realms.

In the Realms, Gods are worthy of worship, out of respect, fear, love, its all the same in the end.
 

Scribe

Legend
Just wanted to bump this, with a final note as I just finished reading Evans Fire in the Blood and Ashes of the Tyrant and I feel the Dragonborn position in this thread is misrepresented. There was no outright denial of the Gods, from any of the characters in Ashes. There was a lot of talk about not NEEDING Gods, and a lot of talk about not making one dependent or yoked to a Gods (Tyrants) wishes.

The Dragonborn throughout the book very much acknowledge Gods (and with the subject matter of the series its hard not to) but even one of the characters late paints a picture of how people in the Realms view the afterlife and its not at all about worship, or acceptance, but there is no way characters in the Realms would out right deny they exist.

It would literally be the same as walking up to someone on the street and saying they dont exist. Thats what it takes to get into the Wall. A delusional willful denial of what is real.

Anyway, apologies if this necro is too old, I just finished the book and thought it was relevant to the topic. :]
 

Dim Tzir

First Post
The problem here is that you all concider the wall of the faithless a punishment. but thtas the thing. it isnt a punishment. the people who didnt care about the gods to a degree where their aftelife or their immortal soul were irrelevant to them, get exactly that when they go to the fugue plane. they get nothingness. in the wall you merge and you lose yourslef. since you didnt care about afterlife at all, thats what you get. a gray blandness until your soul gets absorded.
for the people who dont care about the gods and aftelife and tthe planes etc, that would actually be theri personal heaven. sure for some it would be hell. imagine a barbarian going to the fugue plane and becoming a wall. but for the man who lived a quest nondescript life and wanted a quiet nondescript death, the wall is that
 

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