D&D 4E Kara-Tur Supplement for 4e - Ideas?

I think fighter really can work fine for a kensai. Its SLIGHTLY sub-optimal to go with Cloth armor as a 4e fighter, but not MUCH (and you can take Unarmored Agility). Truthfully you don't even have to START as such. Kensai were MASTERS of their weapons, not neophytes, so a level 1 kensai isn't even a concept that makes sense IMHO. At some point just doff your heavy armor and stick to the one weapon, take the kensai PP (if you want, there are others that probably work well too) and go from there.

Truthfully the idea of such a character not wearing any armor isn't even that authentic either. Musashi is almost certainly the model for this sort of thing. He almost certainly would have worn armor in battle, and NOBODY wore it all around town constantly or fought duels in it. So he wasn't really doing some super special thing.

One thing to watch out for, especially with OA/Kara-Tur but also with a LOT of the other 'oriental stuff' is its often wacky BS. Maybe its based on someone's idea of some interpretation of some legends and whatnot, but there's a huge range of sources and different time periods and traditions, and a lot of it isn't that much like what we got from reading OA or playing Bushido way back when.

Frankly, I think the existing classes, plus maybe the Dragon 404 themes, and the Dragon 404 honor mechanic (or maybe steal the one from OA, it wasn't bad) and just spin things 'Eastern'. The swords are curved, the armor is laquered, the houses have paper walls, and everyone wears a topknot and bows a lot. (not to make it superficial, but what I mean is the MECHANICS of existing classes will serve quite well, and the other stuff is story).

AbdulAlhazred said:

Frankly, I think the existing classes, plus maybe the Dragon 404 themes, and the Dragon 404 honor mechanic (or maybe steal the one from OA, it wasn't bad) and just spin things 'Eastern'. The swords are curved, the armor is laquered, the houses have paper walls, and everyone wears a topknot and bows a lot. (not to make it superficial, but what I mean is the MECHANICS of existing classes will serve quite well, and the other stuff is story).

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Agreed. I'm going to do a few more of these in the next couple of days just for the heck of it, but I'm certain that 4e's mechanics are robust to the challenge of OA/Kara Tur. I think I'll go:

Kensai - Monk with Swordmage multi-class for sword implements and WIndlord character theme for wire-fu genre stuff.

Sohei - Avenger with a polearm (naginata) and divine-sourced attacks, Sohei theme and Monk multi-class.

Samurai - Tempest Fighter w/ light armor and a pair of swords (katana and wakizashi) with Samurai theme.

Ninja - Executioner Assassin with Beguiler theme (Beguiling Flash as smoke bomb!).

Wu Jen - I'd probably go Sorcerer Elementalist with Nature Rituals and one of the Elementalist themes to round out elemental power access.

This is making me want to run a 4e OA game with Honor mechanics!

Manbearcat said:

Agreed. I'm going to do a few more of these in the next couple of days just for the heck of it, but I'm certain that 4e's mechanics are robust to the challenge of OA/Kara Tur. I think I'll go:

Kensai - Monk with Swordmage multi-class for sword implements and WIndlord character theme for wire-fu genre stuff.

Sohei - Avenger with a polearm (naginata) and divine-sourced attacks, Sohei theme and Monk multi-class.

Samurai - Tempest Fighter w/ light armor and a pair of swords (katana and wakizashi) with Samurai theme.

Ninja - Executioner Assassin with Beguiler theme (Beguiling Flash as smoke bomb!).

Wu Jen - I'd probably go Sorcerer Elementalist with Nature Rituals and one of the Elementalist themes to round out elemental power access.

This is making me want to run a 4e OA game with Honor mechanics!

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Yeah, I've thought about it. In my mind I see Fantasy Japan as the islands of the Dragonborn, who make PERFECT samurai! hehe.

How about a Wu Jen?

Full disclosure: I took some liberties here because my own vision of a Wu Jen is basically that of a wandering mystic, a terrifying sorcerer/witch with powerful control over the elements (earth/metal, wind, fire, water, wood/nature) and the mind. I could have gone several ways with this (Hybridizing Wizard (Arcanist/Witch), Psion, Sorcerer, Shaman, Warlock), but I settled on Wizard (Sha'ir). I know the 1e Wu Jen has a spellbook, but I always felt that was an artifact of D&D's resource trappings (Sorcerer didn't exist yet and the only spellcasting without a book was divine) rather than being thematically coherent. Sha'ir is basically an elementalist wizard that culls magical energy from the latent superntarual forces of existence, dealing with powerful elemental creatures through spiritual proxies. That looks pretty Wu Jenny to me!

Mostly, I was just aiming at getting Arcane, Elemental, Primal, and Psionic Power Sources in there. Could have gone Arcanist (spellbook)/Psion (mind stuff and ki) hybrid with Nature Rituals and the same theme, but I went with the below:

1) Natural elemental resistance and all the relevant elements are here in the spells; earth/metal, wind, fire, water, wood/nature. Big time elemental boom powers which is what they're known for. Further, took Druid multi-class to for the wood/nature stuff , giving (a) Nature for surviving the isolated life in the wild and (b) Nature's Growth as a Daily as well as the dealing with nature spirits of the world angle (primal keyword). Skewering Spikes covers the earth/metal spell.

2) A lot of these spells are on the Wu Jen spell list and part and parcel of their shtick; Chameleon Mask, Suggestion are both staples and Water Stride Solkra's Wave for the water animation/manipulation/swim spells.

3) The Least Air Elemental familiar actually works well here I think. It gives the Wu Jen access to some other staple effects in the manipulation of wind with a Feather Fall-like effect and Unseen Servant (on its spell list). It also goes with the Wu Jen dealing with supernatural forces.

4) Primordial Adept theme plays right into the Wu Jen sweet spot of dealing with and commanding the elemental forces of the world; elemental manipulation encounter power, speak primordial (which can be the language of tengu and oni) and bonuses to these interactions/powers down the line.

5) The Elan Heritage Feat covers the ki/psionic stuff. I could have gone with improved init (which is one of their primary abilities due to their ki), but I liked this one better. Hypnotism, Message, Know History, and varieties of phantasms (staples for Wu Jen) are sort of telepathy-ey in that they allow you to access/convey information magically. The Wu Jen outright having telepathy increases its "mysticness" and gives it some psionic stuff. Finally, the feat also gives them a psionic defense power.

6) The Trained Skill set up augments their ability to attract followers and deal with the world (Diplomacy and Insight augmented by Arcana and Suggestion) that is generally terrified of them and gives them the relevant knowledges they should have (Dungeoneering and Nature to get along in the wild and understanding of the primal spirits, Arcana for elemental spirits and magical detection, History because you should know lots of stuff from your travels and have access to lore via the spirits!).

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Human, Wizard (Sha'ir)
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
World Walker (+2 to Arcana)
Theme: Primordial Adept

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 13, DEX 12, INT 18, WIS 14, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 13, DEX 12, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 11


AC: 14 Fort: 13 Ref: 16 Will: 16
HP: 23 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +11, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +7, History +9, Insight +7, Nature +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Athletics +0, Bluff +0, Endurance +1, Heal +2, Intimidate +0, Perception +2, Religion +4, Stealth +1, Streetwise +0, Thievery +1

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Primordial Adept Attack: Solkara's Wave
Feat Utility: Elan Resilience
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Wizard Utility: Chameleon's Mask
Wizard Utility: Whispering Wind
Wizard Utility: Water Stride
Wizard Utility: Suggestion
Druid Utility: Nature's Growth
Wizard Attack 1: Scorching Burst
Wizard Attack 1: Arc Lightning
Wizard Attack 1: Skewering Spikes
Wizard Attack 1: Arcane Whirlwind

FEATS
Arcane Familiar
Harbinger of Nature's Wrath
Level 1: Elan Heritage

ITEMS
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
Staff Implement x1
====== End ======

Sounds nice and elementaly/naturey to me.

Wu Jen is a tough one though, because it is actually hard to tell what it is supposed to represent. OA has the class, and treats it like a magic user, but 'Wu Jen' is not really a term that is used in Chinese! A 'Wu' is a (usually female) Shaman-like character, which might equate to some extent with sorcerer, warlock, witch, and/or druid, or elementalist. The term 'Wushen' is sometimes used, 'shen' meaning a spirit. This MIGHT be the origin of 'Wu Jen' (through differences in transliteration). A male equivalent might be called 'Wu', but is more likely to be called other things, like 'xian' perhaps, with similar connotations.

Wu literally has to do with making connections to spirits, ancestors, or gods. 'Wuism' is a term used for the ancient shamanic traditions of China, specifically as opposed to those of central asia, which are better known (and from which the term saman or shaman derives).

China/Japan really don't have anything quite like the academic scholar wizard figure of western mythology. Their equivalent is more like either a warlock/shaman sort of guy, or a Taoist priest sort of guy. Or else you're into 'Wushu' which is basically your martial arts with all the fantastical trappings attached (reference the tale of Su Can 'Beggar Su' and the 'Drunken Fist' here).

Manbearcat said:

Samurai - Tempest Fighter w/ light armor and a pair of swords (katana and wakizashi) with Samurai theme.

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Well, gee. It is SO generous of you, as one of those elite class of humans known as Floridians, no less one who use a South Park reference as your username, as the internationally recognized foremost experts at what does and does not qualify as a samurai, to inform us all that the Japanese have been doing it all wrong.

But, really, samurai is such a wider category than the narrow little box you would put it in. "Samurai" wasn't really a term used until after they stopped being in use. But, at best, it could be a term that would widely apply to "officers" and there weren't any particular requirements of their armor or weapons. Although many did carry two swords which, may or may not, have been of different lengths, they wore as heavy armor as was appropriate for the situation with and primarily fought with bow (or rifle) and a polearm from the back of a horse.

Focus on being the best swordsman around was the hobby of a few notorious duelists who ran around challenging anyone who proclaimed themselves to be the best. (And a lot of them didn't even fight with swords, the most famous one tended to use a wooden sword) And even many of them wouldn't really be called "samurai". Only in the later years when the descendants of samurai drove themselves bankrupt and sold almost all their ancestors equipment did they make a big deal about holding onto the swords (and taking care of them since they were no longer allowed to be produced!) and clung to possessing them and being able to use them the best as their point of pride to claim to still be a "samurai" of sorts.

But unless you are positing a world that has been at peace for 100 years with no weapons being produced and no one to fight against, then "samurai" for all intents and purposes is simply any Fighter or Paladin or Ranger or Warlord or possibly even Bard who claims to be from a rich family that is or works for a noble. Nothing more distinct than that.

AbdulAlhazred said:

China/Japan really don't have anything quite like the academic scholar wizard figure of western mythology. Their equivalent is more like either a warlock/shaman sort of guy, or a Taoist priest sort of guy. Or else you're into 'Wushu' which is basically your martial arts with all the fantastical trappings attached (reference the tale of Su Can 'Beggar Su' and the 'Drunken Fist' here).

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I'm not sure I would say Warlock is the best example, but certainly there aren't nearly as distinct differences between different sorts of mages. Of course, the reason why is because "shaman" and "witch doctor" are words invented assigned to "primitive" people's priests, "wizard" is generally the term associated with users of magic looked upon favorably while the words "witch" and "warlock" are just evil magic users who work with demons or the devil (which was all people who could be accused of using magic in the dominant society of the west). A more clear separation between "wizard" and "warlock/witch" is the product of the pop culture that sprung up around western fantasy since the 1940s or so. Prior to that time there was no clear distinction except that "witch" is generally thought to apply only to females (which wasn't necessarily the case back when people thought there were real witches).

Since more clear distinctions in these words is a relatively recent western invention, you really aren't going to find such clear-cut categories when looking at old eastern literature and mythology and even in their pop culture, it will only come up when one is copying the categories from a western game.

But here are some links to give you some ideas on what sort of model to consider.

http://coolinterestingstuff.com/the-true-story-of-abe-no-seimei
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_(shaman)

If I'm not mistaken, the Heavenly Halberdier feat was created in that same Dragon article for Runepriests, making me think that the intent was for Runepriests to be the model for Sohei.

(As I recall, Sohei employed naginata [glaive] as their go-to weapon)

TheHobgoblin said:

But unless you are positing a world that has been at peace for 100 years with no weapons being produced and no one to fight against, then "samurai" for all intents and purposes is simply any Fighter or Paladin or Ranger or Warlord or possibly even Bard who claims to be from a rich family that is or works for a noble. Nothing more distinct than that.

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Samurai was a class of lesser nobles, and a description of what they did. It was a distinct group of people, had distinct codes of conduct and dress, and occupied a specific social function and class. The word translates roughly as 'servant', but probably 'aid' or 'subordinate' might capture the sense of it better. Its no more or less a valid concept than 'knight' in Western European culture, such people did exist. I'm not entirely sure when the specific term 'samurai' was introduced, but as a distinct group they existed at least as far back as the Edo Period.

And the 'sword culture' wasn't simply something that was made up in the 19th Century. Maybe it was used as an excuse for hanging onto swords at that time, but the value of the swords, culturally, already existed. No doubt most samurai weren't a whole lot like Musashi Miyamoto, but that was still an ideal, just like there were ideals of western knights that inform how gentlemen of various eras thought about themselves. In a fantasy game it makes a fairly good model to start from.

I'm not sure I would say Warlock is the best example, but certainly there aren't nearly as distinct differences between different sorts of mages. Of course, the reason why is because "shaman" and "witch doctor" are words invented assigned to "primitive" people's priests, "wizard" is generally the term associated with users of magic looked upon favorably while the words "witch" and "warlock" are just evil magic users who work with demons or the devil (which was all people who could be accused of using magic in the dominant society of the west). A more clear separation between "wizard" and "warlock/witch" is the product of the pop culture that sprung up around western fantasy since the 1940s or so. Prior to that time there was no clear distinction except that "witch" is generally thought to apply only to females (which wasn't necessarily the case back when people thought there were real witches).

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Warlock literally means nothing more or less than 'male witch' in actual folklore. I was using the term in its 4e D&D sense to mean "a character class which gains power through a pact with an extra-planar entity or higher power." Both the West and the East had models for someone like say John Dee, who acted as an advisor to Queen Elizabeth I. He was a highly knowledgeable 'sage' who (notionally of course) could command an understanding of hermetic mysteries to tell the future, etc. In the East such a character would probably be considered a 'Wu' or a Taoist priest perhaps, or one or another form of traditional wonder worker (of which many terms and different stories and explanations were told). 'Wu' however has other specific connotations as well, and is a much more religious type of figure than John Dee, who might well have been burned for witchcraft himself if the inquisition had made it to England in 1588.

Since more clear distinctions in these words is a relatively recent western invention, you really aren't going to find such clear-cut categories when looking at old eastern literature and mythology and even in their pop culture, it will only come up when one is copying the categories from a western game.

But here are some links to give you some ideas on what sort of model to consider.

http://coolinterestingstuff.com/the-true-story-of-abe-no-seimei
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_(shaman)

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Of course the real world offers many models for these things. The OA 'Wu Jen' is just a pretty unclear one as the term isn't even found in the original context, so it was to some degree made up by the authors. And yes, I've read your references, or the same material, many times. I think you'll find the article on 'Wu' in the Wikipedia pretty much says what I just said. In fact I'm not real sure we're disagreeing here, Wu Jen isn't a very good term for a rehash of the D&D book wizard. The warlock, perhaps druid, or maybe the elementalist, might work better, though I agree that none of the folklore is precise enough to exactly delineate different classes.

This is why Gygax chose to have simply 'magic user' as the class. The issue he then had was he was stuck inventing some mechanics for it for gamist reasons, which then pigeonholed it as 'academic wizard' and left out a lot of conceptual space, which then got filled with other classes, creating fine distinctions that weren't in the base material.

TheHobgoblin said:

Well, gee. It is SO generous of you, as one of those elite class of humans known as Floridians, no less one who use a South Park reference as your username, as the internationally recognized foremost experts at what does and does not qualify as a samurai, to inform us all that the Japanese have been doing it all wrong.

But, really, samurai is such a wider category than the narrow little box you would put it in.

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This deserves a much more vigorous response than I have in me with a much less respectful tone than I'm going to give you. But here you go:

1) I don't have any idea what would fuel the weird irrational contempt that taints your first paragraph here. Any autobiographical information about myself that you would like to mock is utterly irrelevant to the question of "Can we play Kara Tur/OA with the 4e ruleset (PC build rules, mechanics, et al) as is or do we need to make up several distinct classes, resolution mechanics, and gear?"

2) Kara Tur/OA is pulp feudal Japan incorporating several related items of mythology; shape-shifting cats, demonic/spiritual entities like the Tengu and Karasu-Tengu, witches/hags, all sorts of mystics/magics, angry spirits/ghosts, the dragon/Ryuu, the creation myth, emperor legends. It is not real feudal Japan. Nonetheless, it loosely poaches its martial genre conflicts from the source material with shoguns, their daimyo, their samurai et al.

3) Thank you for the condescension-laden, random personal-attack-infused education, but it isn't remotely necessary. I'm fairly well-learned in the feudal history of Japan through the Edo period. I know exactly what Samurai were in our real world and I know exactly how that real world informed the PC builds mechanics (and Honor mechanics) of OA and Kara Tur. Did I choose Myamoto Musashi as the source material for my (very rough PC build outlline) above? Of course I did? BECAUSE ALMOST EVERY WESTERN NERD WHO WANTS TO PLAY A SAMURAI WANTS TO BE MYAMOTO MUSASHI. Not because I'm dense. Not because I'm an ignorant (elitist?) Floridian who chose whatever stupid handle for serious business D&D foruming that I chose.

4) I can't put different builds together right now (I don't have Silverlight on here), but you could easily use several different chassis for the various Samurai archetypes out there. You could use straight Warlord. You could use straight Fighter. You could certainly use Ranger. You could use Monk. You could hybrid any of the above. You should probably have stout Diplomacy and Intimidate to reflect (a) your presence/force of will and (b) your caste (or a good reason not to). You should have weapon proficiency in a vast array of weapons; katana, wakizashi, tanto, yumi, naginata, jo/bo (heavy blades, light blades, polearms, staffs, bows). You should have something to reflect Iaijutsu. You should be a good horseman/archer. You should have proficiency in lamellar armor and possibly plate. Your Power Source should be a fusion of Martial/Ki (Psionic in 4e). You should likely have an elevated Streetwise, History, Endurance, Athletics. Possibly Nature if you can scrounge it out. You should have Utility Powers that reflect your steely will, resolve, fearlessness, influence, and the awe you inspire.

---

Maybe you can apologize for your weirdly disrespectful post to a complete stranger on the internet? I'd be glad to talk about Kara Tur/OA and the way 4e does or does not meet the demands of the thematic material. Conversely, you can put me on ignore. Your choice. But I'm not going to get worked up over serious business Samurai meets D&D stuff enough to go back and forth with angry screeds laced with (strange) personal attacks at internet randos. I've actually had bad stuff happen to me in life to give me a little perspective...

[sblock]such as fighting a failing battle with brain cancer for two long, GD-awful years with the most beloved, most revered, and most respected person in my life only to watch them degrade and perish in the most terrible way imaginable...dying horribly and unceremoniously as the world spends its time posting narcissistic selfies, furiously masturbating over celebrity affairs...and apparently getting worked up over weird misperceptions of (elitist?) people in Florida who have silly handles (because that is also serious business...and its a fusion of Manbearpig from South Park and the World of Warcraft Druid!) because they are (not actually) ignorant when it comes to OMG SAMURAI.[/sblock]

4e Monks can use any weapon that they're proficient with as an implement.. They don't need to be MC'd into Swordmage to do that...