D&D 4E New to 4ed. : what do i have to know/look out for?

Tony Vargas

Legend
Very interesting discussions! Thanks for that. I have to be honest, it does intimidate a bit ^^ Luckily, i also heard that 4e is "easy" on the GM (on the internet but also from a friend of mine who DM'd 4e for a while) ;)
Easy compared to other iterations of D&D, sure, so your past experience will color your perception. It is surprisingly easy to whip up encounters, and you don't need to audit PCs like you did in 3e, or 'know the rules better than your players' in an almost adversarial sense like EGG expected of you in 1e. Creating a really good skill challenge is a little more work, because they never quite fully explored the system's potential, but even a phoned-in one won't be terrible, just not terribly gripping, either.

i guess first things first: 1) ask my players if they are interested :D
Yeah, hopefully they haven't been poisoned by the edition war.
2) start reading a lot of the books, especially DMG1 and 2 (right?) ....
DMG 2 is particularly helpful. And the rules for play in the PH - or the softbound Rules Compendium, which is pretty nice concentrated rules-you-need-to-play/run the game (including the best version of skill challenges). You just need a firm grasp of play, and you're good. You don't need to know powers, classes, or read every monster to figure out how monsters work or 'get a feel' for the threat they pose or anything like that.
 
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MoutonRustique

Explorer
Very interesting discussions! Thanks for that. I have to be honest, it does intimidate a bit ^^ Luckily, i also heard that 4e is "easy" on the GM (on the internet but also from a friend of mine who DM'd 4e for a while) ;)

I have to say, i'm pretty motivated to give this a try. But i guess first things first: 1) ask my players if they are interested :D 2) start reading a lot of the books, especially DMG1 and 2 (right?) ....

Anyway...thanks again to all of you. And discuss on...i'm avidly reading along :)
I know what I'm saying amounts to asking a nervous person to stop being nervous, but I'm still going to say it! :p

There is less need to read everything and uber-prepare than there ever was. You can trust the system - it works. The game is huge now, but it wasn't at launch - and it worked great!

There's really no need to learn everything - or even much of anything!

You can jump into everything and gobble up every material you can find - but if you use just the basic parts to start, it will still be, in every sense that matters, all of 4e.

You're not "doing less" by not knowing every single option.

Then again, if you want to, knock yourself out! We'll be happy to throw mountains of advice, opinion and just plain old discussion at you! - We'll be here all night! (so to speak) :D
 

One note about CharOp in 4E, and that you can see in some of the examples above, is that although a lot of things may be very good most of the "tricks" require at least two or three separate elements (a combination of a specific class and multiple feats and/or magic items) to get them to work in their most basic form, and usually aren't "overpowered" at their basic level - it's not until you start adding in a fourth or fifth element that they begin to become obnoxious. As long as your players aren't trying to pursue them out to their full extent, they shouldn't be a problem in an average party unless everyone else was attempting to maximize their underwater basketweaving.

One of the things that goes with this is that I'd say the majority of really obnoxious builds pretty much require some items. DO NOT fall for the argument that items are a player resource and they MUST get every item that they ask for. I'm not saying at all that DMs should thwart every attempt by players to get the items they want, but you don't have to make it EASY, and you don't have to give them ALL of what they want. Remember too, PCs can make a lot of items in 4e. They won't (if you follow the treasure parcel values) have enough resources to make tons of stuff for themselves, but they'll be able to make one interesting item every few levels that they really want. With the newer Enchanting rules you can also make them seek after materials or whatnot to allow creation of all but the most vanilla items if you wish.

Giving out items in a way that is more narratively sensible and interesting IMHO puts a bit of a brake on the most egregious hyper-optimizing. Players can still do it, and you can always allow as much of it as you want, but they may end up with a bit more story-driven build than they might otherwise.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think my take that "provoking and emcouraging movement is an issue for 4e GMs" stems from the unfortunately pervasive "combat slog is inherent to 4e" meme.

<snip>

My sense is the issue (insofar that there is one) is multifaceted:

1) too many damn players at the table (which will feed back into too many enemy units if you aren't using hazards as a healthy part of your encounter budget)..
2) too many players not putting in the effort to minimize the handling time of their on-turn and off-turn actions.
3) GMs not framing combats around "extra-HP-ablation goals."
4) GMs not leveraging the inherent dynamism of the combat engine by failing to provoke or encourage movement (and stunting). Which is a head-scratcher because the system advocates it heavily and shows you how.

The first two are group/player issues. The latter two are GM-side. 4, by itself, goes a loooooooooooong way toward mitigating "sloggines."
We play with one GM and 5 players. And we are a bunch of lazy middle-aged guys, so we're not always moving at the speed of light! But (as I hope the actual play posts show) our combats don't just turn it "roll, hit, damage" until one side or the other is ablated. There's action going on and decisions being made.

4e encourages movement and gives you all the tools to facilitate dynamic (spatially, decision point-wise, and narratively) combat. It should become intuitive after a fair go (or immediately if you have prior exposure)
I have to be honest, it does intimidate a bit ^^ Luckily, i also heard that 4e is "easy" on the GM (on the internet but also from a friend of mine who DM'd 4e for a while)
The first adventure I used in my 4e game was the old B/X module Night's Dark Terror. I would recommend it to any 4e GM. (I had a physical copy, but it's available on DriveThru for US$5.)

I had the PCs meet in a tavern (of course!). Then the first encounter was a fairly light-hearted social one, in which the patron NPC approaches them and recruits them for a mission. I remember the player of the wizard using his Mage Hand cantrip to tip his hat; and that the patron recognised the wizard's family name and compared notes on his uncle. From the more "meta" point of view, it didn't just give the PCs a misssion, but helped establish the feel of the setting and embed the PCs/players into the setting.

The first real encounter was with cultists blocking the PCs' boat on the river. Ranged attacks from the bank; an enemy mage using a raft as a firing platform; sandbars that the PCs tried to jump/teleport to; everything [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] and I have said about movement, space, tactical decisions etc was there in the first encounter. (I think the NPCs included a halfling slinger on the bank, a human guard and human mage on the raft, and 5 or so cultist minions swimming through the river to engage the PCs. There might have been a bandit somewhere there too.)

The mage and halfling surrendered, and the PC paladin took the mage into indenture. (Later on she was killed, and rose as a wight to get her revenge on the paladin. And then, later on again, a goblin shaman conjured her back as a wraith to get yet more vengeance on the paladin and other PCs.)

The next encounter was an abandoned home, with a bear there. The PCs, led by the paladin, befriended rather than beat up the bear, and so the paladin arrived at the homestead with two allies in tow.

The module comes with a big map of the homestead, and the centrepiece is a night-time goblin assault. I was able to use the different 1st and 2nd level goblins from the MM - so of the 20-odd goblins the module called for, probably half were minions and the rest a mix of standards and maybe one elite underboss.

Anyway, I've gone through the above to give a sense of how a GM can adapt an old module to good effect in a 4e game.
 
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We play with one GM and 5 players. And we are a bunch of lazy middle-aged guys, so we're not always moving at the speed of light! But (as I hope the actual play posts show) our combats don't just turn it "roll, hit, damage" until one side or the other is ablated. There's action going on and decisions being made.

My takeaway here is gauntlet thrown down!...that the teens, twenty-somethings, and early thirty-somethings that have played a (likely not small) role in creating or perpetuating the "4e combat is a slog" meme have no excuse!
 

MwaO

Adventurer
One of the things that goes with this is that I'd say the majority of really obnoxious builds pretty much require some items.

I wouldn't quite say that. Many of them can hit the point where they destroy the table without necessarily needing item options outside of some sort +X item.

But definitely, I think one of the issues of 4e is that people think they can get exactly the item they want and at the level of everyone else.

When you give people a choice of +X exactly what they want and +X+1 of a really good item that's not actually exactly what they want, it often makes the choice a lot more interesting.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I wouldn't quite say that. Many of them can hit the point where they destroy the table without necessarily needing item options outside of some sort +X item.

But definitely, I think one of the issues of 4e is that people think they can get exactly the item they want and at the level of everyone else.

When you give people a choice of +X exactly what they want and +X+1 of a really good item that's not actually exactly what they want, it often makes the choice a lot more interesting.

eh, if no one is chasing char op, there is little balance reason to restrict items. My table mostly does treasure in sellable valuables, and we just commission whatever items we want that we can afford, and it works fine, because no one wants to take the system.

We often flavor new items as upgraded enchantments for the same item. Other times the DM has an idea of what the player wants, and if it's a new sword, for instance, they will have an enemy that PC needs to fight have a magic sword of appropriate level, and when the enemy is defeated, the player must "study" their prize before safely using it. Ie, praise the CB for what exact level x sword they want.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
In the campaign I'm trying to wrap up (it's been going since 2011, the highest level PC is 21st, it may take a while), I'm actually a little stingy with items, have never even gotten a 'wish list' from a player, and that also seems to work fine. Since it's a public/open campaign I've also had the odd optimizer walk in with an item-leveraging customized build and, yeah, if it was a striker it'd out-damage the native PCs a bit, but not exactly ruin anything. OP (whether short for OPtimized or Over-Powered) in 4e just burns down the monsters a little faster, it doesn't trivialize encounters into rocket tag or anything.
 
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MwaO

Adventurer
eh, if no one is chasing char op, there is little balance reason to restrict items.

Not about balance so much as it is about fun. As a great example, I had a PC whose concept was that he was an Eladrin Swordmage|Battlemind who would deliberately:
A) Go into a Warlock Paragon Path that rewarded Teleportation without actually taking the obvious at-will Teleportation option. And this was in part because I liked Caiphon, the purple star's flavor.
B) Use a Rapier and because I thought Light Blade Expertise would be fun, not take any implement powers from Swordmage.
C) Be a Knight from Myth Drannor, because, hey, I'm a Gish and that's what Eladrin Gishes do. But his backstory was he was an Eladrin Rogue, sent to a prison city, who was possessed by a long-dead Knight from Myth Drannor. Who might occasionally get recognized as that Rogue and had some really odd skills for being a Knight, such as bad scores in Stealth and Thievery. Who btw, worshipped Selune. Not because I wanted the feat Silvery Glow, but I just happened to like the moon flavor for the Knight. Wasn't even planning to take it. Also way before Ghost from the Past Theme, too.

Now what could go wrong? Well, I found a Sunblade(longsword) that was a special ancient relic, important to Knights from Myth Drannor. Did I mention Sunblade? Well, it happened to be a purple Sunblade.

And just like that, a bunch of my build ideas went out the window, because I had to have that Sunblade for my PC. Not because it was particularly good - Sunblade is an appeal to be in a Radiant Mafia party and I don't think I was once. It literally was essentially custom designed for my PC in a way that I didn't think possible in a globally played game. Ancient Eladrin Knight of Myth Drannor who has a Pact with a Purple Sun finds an ancient relic that's a Purple Sunblade holy to the Knights of Myth Drannor.

And while I was definitely able to optimize around it, it was a lot of fun to have my ideas disrupted and have to go a different route.
 

I agree with what someone said above: to learn 4e, just jump in and play/DM. Don't worry about house rules, things that *might* be 'OP', 'math tax feats', blah blah blah. Just play the game. It works. It's fun. And the few mechanical problems are not even going to be noticeable when you start out.
 

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