D&D 5E I think the era of 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons had it right. (not talking about the rules).

When I say this I don’t mean the rules, because I didn’t really like them, but the overall approach to D&D, minus a few things here and there. While it took a while to get everything off the ground, I really miss the fact that we had a great online magazine, a character builder, an in house VTT that worked, and we were getting lots of content. Now I would like to break these things down into a few bullet points and discuss in more detail.

• Online magazine: Well during this time we had a subscription paid online Dragon magazine. I must say that I really miss this because it allowed me to get great articles that I could read anywhere I had internet access. I felt like I was getting what I paid for even though I didn’t use the game options because I didn’t really like the rules at the time. I could see how someone who did like 4th edition at the time would have been delighted at all the extra content they were getting. When I look at Dragon+ compared to then, all I see is a hollow shadow of its former self. It’s almost sad in a way because I see where Dragon was to what it is now and it really contradicts Wizard’s whole strategy behind multimedia content. I don’t think just throwing stuff up on Facebook and Twitter really qualifies as that, as well as a free app that talk less about the actual game and more about D&D outside the table top game. I don’t really care which celeb was seen wearing a D&D t-shirt.

• Character builder: Now from a business stand point I can see where this all went wrong but from a customer view it was brilliant. I don’t really care about Wizard’s profit margins so I’m looking at this from a customer benefit. It was best when it was offline but it had its upsides to when it went online only. Either way you had a really useful tool that allowed you to create characters and store them for future use. I fully understand how it made someone more inclined to not even bother buying the books but it was still a great thing.

• In house VTT: While this was by no means fancy, it was still very practical because of the price and the set up. What I liked was it enabled me to come home from work, come into the VTT and join a game that was either about to start or in the middle and looking for someone else to play. I didn’t have to go to a community and arrange a group and time to play. I could jump right in to a game when I wanted to. For me this VTT was very practical and not in the least expensive. The VTT’s now are too costly and doesn’t allow me to scroll games currently running. It did what I needed it to do and I sorely miss it.

• Content: I think if the content at the time would have been spread out and not thrown out all at once it would have been better accepted. Now I didn’t like the way the Realms was handled because I am a massive fan of the Realms, but that aside we did get loads of content. I will say that we got a bit too much player content and if Wizard’s hadn’t had the “everything is core” stance most DM’s would have just limited what they allowed in their games.

When I look back at all this I don’t see the 5th edition era of D&D as being any sort of “Golden Age”. The 5th edition rules of D&D are nice but I don’t have the feeling that I did with previous editions that the game is being supported in the way that it should. Again, I don’t care for profit margins so I don’t care from a business view. I am a customer so I am explaining how the era of the game felt whole to me, minus a few things here and there. If I could get the setting support of 2nd and 3rd edition with the overall structure of the 4th edition era with the rules of 5th edition then we would truly have a golden age of Dungeons and Dragons.

I’m not a fan of the whole Acquisitions Inc and other shows out there, nor am I a fan of the current adventures because I like to come up with my own stories and settings so the strategy of this edition just doesn’t suit me, not to mention the fact that the novel line could be ending doesn’t hit right with me. I don’t believe in the spin we are hearing because it’s disingenuous and doesn’t take all the facts into account. It’s just their way of trying to get us to accept that the way they want to run things is the best for D&D.

What exactly is best for D&D? Is it best for D&D to keep Wizard’s with in specific profit margins with a low overhead and very small release schedule in order to keep making money to keep it going in this direction or is it getting the customer what they want so they will lots of product that they can use from years to come. I liked the fact that I felt surrounded by novels, content, and online support. I don’t feel like that anymore. I feel like D&D is being treated like a commercial entity and that the suits are just trying to justify their business decision by telling us that our way is what’s best for D&D.

What’s best for D&D is what’s best for the consumer in my opinion.

So much of those requests I don't share.

I don't need the magazines. The magazine's content isn't particularly desirable anymore. That's an outdated business model. It's like selling D&D 8-tracks.
There are three types of article in the magazines: adventure, crunch, and advice.
With the DMs Guild, I can get whatever digital crunch I need. And it can be updated as errors pop up. Ditto adventures. And it's written by the exact same people who would have freelanced for the magazines. Only instead of getting a whole wealth of content I don't want, I can pick-and-choose exactly what I want.
And D&D advice articles have entirely and completely been replaced by blogs. Or Twitter.
What's left when you cut out the above? Dragon+ and Sage Advice.

I don't need an online character builder. Making a character isn't hard. In 5e, I can allow my players level up during the session, which I wouldn't have dared to do in 3e or 4e unless I needed a 30-minute break to get food.
The character builder was expensive to make, expensive to maintain, doesn't fill a purpose anymore, and reduced the number of books sold. It'd be more practical for WotC to dig a big pit, fill it full of money, and light it on fire.

I don't need an in-house VTT. WotC isn't a software company, and their software was always . The free version of Roll20 is already better than the paid VTT from WotC.
Okay, you can't do pick-up groups with Roll20. But that's *super* niche as a request. I'm not sure how many people really want to just spontaneously play D&D with strangers. But ask Roll20 and maybe they can work in a pick-up-group feature.
(Not sure about Fantasy Grounds. That might already exist.)

Corpsetaker said:

What exactly is best for D&D? Is it best for D&D to keep Wizard’s with in specific profit margins with a low overhead and very small release schedule in order to keep making money to keep it going in this direction or is it getting the customer what they want so they will lots of product that they can use from years to come. I liked the fact that I felt surrounded by novels, content, and online support. I don’t feel like that anymore. I feel like D&D is being treated like a commercial entity and that the suits are just trying to justify their business decision by telling us that our way is what’s best for D&D.

What’s best for D&D is what’s best for the consumer in my opinion.

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I think what's best for D&D is something that's sustainable for a longer period. Rapid edition changes are not good for D&D and following 3e and 4e, D&D was near death with a fragmented audience that were all playing different editions and not always buying the books.
A longer, stable edition allows more people time to come into D&D, without having to worry about what edition people are playing or feeling confused by different books on the shelves and incompatible rules. That's good for the game and the consumer over the long term. Because you have to look at things over the course of years and not months.

I've long been an advocate for releasing new content more like a board game and less like... well, whatever D&D was doing prior. The hobby board game is a known business model that has proved sustainable for years. The wave of content strategy that was tried by 3e and 4e didn't prove very sustainable. And despite being willing to accept far, far smaller profit margins, it doesn't look like it's worked well for Pathfinder either, as they've said they regretted the pace of releases (hence why they're doing things super slow for Starfinder).

What the small subsets of fans desire - such as those who wants more D&D crunch on a weekly basis via an online magazine - isn't necessarily good for D&D or WotC.
I know you "don’t care for profit margins so I don’t care from a business view". And would probably be happy if WotC started selling books at a loss so you could get the product for cheaper. But if WotC stops caring about things from a business perspective then D&D starts losing money and the RPG gets shut down. They'll likely keep handing out the licenses, so the brand will continue, but they're not going to just keep publishing product because it makes people happy. They're a business not a charity.

But we've talked about this before. Repeatedly. Probably bi-monthly. And you continue to believe 5e is somehow doing poorly, despite all evidence to the contrary. So I doubt anything I've said here will change your mind.

Corpsetaker said:

What exactly is best for D&D? Is it best for D&D to keep Wizard’s with in specific profit margins with a low overhead and very small release schedule in order to keep making money to keep it going in this direction or is it getting the customer what they want so they will lots of product that they can use from years to come. I liked the fact that I felt surrounded by novels, content, and online support. I don’t feel like that anymore. I feel like D&D is being treated like a commercial entity and that the suits are just trying to justify their business decision by telling us that our way is what’s best for D&D.

What’s best for D&D is what’s best for the consumer in my opinion.

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Hi. I am someone who is new-ish to actually playing the game, but not new to keeping up with the various iterations over the years (right down to buying PHBs a couple of times because I was "really going to get into it this time), going back to the 1980's. I also used to work in design and marketing, so I have a lot of general knowledge of how that stuff works.

First of all the first bit about releasing stuff with low overhead and small release schedule needs correcting. While the release schedule seems to be nice and regular (I don't see how that's a bad thing but to each his own) the books are of very high quality and I wouldn't say they're in the category of "low overhead". That would be more like a magazine on cheap paper sold for high prices -- and no that is not a dig at the old D&D magazine as that is one thing I never got a look at.

The rest of your post is obviously just a difference of opinion; they're putting out lots of content, but it's not the kind of content you like nor is it presented in the way you like. This, though:

I feel like D&D is being treated like a commercial entity

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It is a commercial entity, and if it does not make enough money then WotC will not be able to continue producing it.

Personally, I love that 5E isn't surrounded by a swarm of proprietary hangers-on. That junk puts me off. I don't want official magazines, character builders, or D&D-brand luggage. A company that slaps its seal on anything and everything is not a company I'm obliged to support.

What REALLY impressed me about 5E was that I could get the Basic Rules for free. That's when I knew that Wizards had finally entered the 21st century. It's also what enticed me to dip my toes in the water and give 5E a chance. The more I discovered, the more I liked. A sensible release schedule, high-quality art, high production values... The list goes on and on.

If Wizards had stuck with their 4E business practices, I would not be a D&D player today.

When it comes to "lots of content", really, what's the point? They already release enough content that you'd struggle to run it all at the table even if you didn't make up anything of your own. The quality of the content they release is debatable, and I doubt any of it except maybe Lost Mines of Phandelver will ever attain the iconic status of old-school modules like Against the Giants, but it's there if you want it.

Personally, the only kind of "content" I'd be interested in seeing loads of is stuff that scales itself without requiring input from a DM. In short, I wouldn't mind seeing a 5E CRPG along the lines of the Gold Box games or Dark Sun: Shattered Lands. That kind of content auto-scales because it's self-running. You can play it without coordinating schedules with anyone, you can do it in half-hour increments as you have time (or twelve-hour binges if you find yourself rained in on a Saturday morning), you can add as much crunch and new rules options as you want without it impacting anyone else's fun, you can satisfy your inner munchkin and/or powergamer and still have plenty to talk about on the forums RE: how to best optimize your 5E characters... without complicating or disrupting anyone's actual D&D game.

I've been working on my own adaptation on and off for months and months now, but I keep getting distracted with yak-shaving. (HTML5, Javascript/Typescript, React, Jest, and now Pixi...) But if I could just plunk down $50 and play a Champion Fighter delving through the mines of Moria and collecting treasure until I died or killed Mangar the Mad Mage, I'd pay that money in a heartbeat and have several hours or days of fun with it. Then I'd pay the next $20 to play as a Valor Bard or a Wizard.

I like how classes, races, feats and class options were designed in 4E in reference to each other. It did go to the excessive side in regards to the amount of options, but the important things is having a formula in place to add it. What was even better from the 4E days was a decent character and monster builder. The later was golden for the players and DM.

As to the rest, it is a mixed bag on whether I found it useful. What has been missing for a while, at least since the 3E days, is good adventures. I believe only Paizo wants to take on that torch in regards to creating something original and different in regards to stories.

Corpsetaker said:

• In house VTT: While this was by no means fancy, it was still very practical because of the price and the set up. What I liked was it enabled me to come home from work, come into the VTT and join a game that was either about to start or in the middle and looking for someone else to play. I didn’t have to go to a community and arrange a group and time to play. I could jump right in to a game when I wanted to. For me this VTT was very practical and not in the least expensive. The VTT’s now are too costly and doesn’t allow me to scroll games currently running. It did what I needed it to do and I sorely miss it.

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This did not exist. The fact that it did not exist was a problem, as it was something they were banking on as 4e was made to work with a VTT. Then the guy making it went insane and died and it fell apart and was never released.

This was never a thing. So unless you were using a third party device and thought it was made by WOTC you are making stuff up.

Also both Maptool and Roll20 are free. (Roll20 less so as there are ads and stuff, but it's popular. And maptool requires you do most of the work. but they work.)

I also miss new and regular content... but when I am looking at the books I bought back then, I really don't like a lot of it anymore. Too much crunch, not enough fluff. I can't use a lot of the content. When I look into my 2e or 3e books, especially 2e books there is so much content still useful. The most sad thing about the 4e era is killing the german books. In 3e I did not bother buying the german books nor in 4e. But the 2e books were really good and useful and I wish I could get dnd 5e in german.

5E is doing really, really well, right? So it seems that what they're doing is pretty good for D&D, regardless of not pleasing what seems like a small minority of fans. There are always going to be some folks who aren't happy, who aren't getting what they want--and maybe most of us won't get exactly what we want. But it seems that WotC has found a nice sweet-spot with 5E where they are pleasing a large number of folks and maintaining economic success. Why mess with that?

Now maybe that will change. Maybe at some point they'll say, "let's do things a bit differently." Right now they're still maintaining high sales without putting out more product, but perhaps at some point the sales on the PHB start declining. At some point they'll want to boost that, perhaps with another yearly book ala the 1E era.

Anyhow, I think it is time to accept the fact that not only will they never go back to the 2E-3E-4E gluttony era, but the reason they won't because it is bad business, it is bad for the game, and what they're doing is working. But again, I wouldn't be surprised if they added another book or two a year at some point. Expanded a bit. There's a lot of degrees between 5E's three-books-a-year and the 10-20+ books of years past. How about 4-5 books a year? Maybe once they get past that three year mark, they'll expand a bit. But I think they will do so only slightly, and at a conservative pace.

Lots of nope.


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