First time making a "serious" dungeon! How do you do it?

Imagine a cross between Petra, Kawah Ijen (Indonesia), and the lair of the hassansins from the movie Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. That's the dungeon I'm currently designing. Something like this. It's called Krak al-Mazhar, Citadel of the Shadow in the Flame, and it's the central fortress for the nefarious Brotherhood of True Flame.

And then it struck me... in all the years I've DMed, I've mostly either adapted existing dungeons, created small five-room dungeons, or avoided dungeons altogether. While I've created lots of adventures, I have very little experience creating serious dungeons (i.e. something thoughtfully designed with a lot of chambers and secrets). So I've been reading up on the subject on blogs like AngryDM, Deeper in the Game, SlyFlourish, Rodney Thompson's "familiar, functional, fantastic", etc.

Would love to hear how those with more experience handle making your own dungeons?

Quickleaf said:

Imagine a cross between Petra, Kawah Ijen (Indonesia), and the lair of the hassansins from the movie Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. That's the dungeon I'm currently designing. Something like this. It's called Krak al-Mazhar, Citadel of the Shadow in the Flame, and it's the central fortress for the nefarious Brotherhood of True Flame.

And then it struck me... in all the years I've DMed, I've mostly either adapted existing dungeons, created small five-room dungeons, or avoided dungeons altogether. While I've created lots of adventures, I have very little experience creating serious dungeons (i.e. something thoughtfully designed with a lot of chambers and secrets). So I've been reading up on the subject on blogs like AngryDM, Deeper in the Game, SlyFlourish, Rodney Thompson's "familiar, functional, fantastic", etc.

Would love to hear how those with more experience handle making your own dungeons?

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Well, you didn't exactly start with an easy concept either.

Before I get into what I generally do, the big problem you are going to find with dungeons like you describe is that there is a tension between verisimilitude and playability. A fortress is designed to be wary, to spread an alert, and to summon all the forces in the dungeon to resist attack in a coordinated manner. That's how real fortresses work, and there architecture is constructed around that goal.

Modern games generally are not, and even old school games usually wanted a 'kick the door down, kill the foe, and take their stuff' structure. The real challenge I have with fortresses is not designing one where quite soon, the entire fortress rallies to drive back any intruder and the PC's are outnumbered by like 20:1. If you design the fortress in such a way that the PC's don't pull the whole fortress out to resist them in mass, and instead break up the defenses into small bite sized engagements, you've really designed an anti-fortress with architecture that is designed deliberately to make the place hard to defend. And aside from not being intuitive, that's always felt a bit silly to me, and makes me feel really uncomfortable. Maybe some people can just ignore that and get on with it, figuring that the players will be too excited to notice. But I can't not notice.

The other problem with fortresses is that they are mostly living space, which is quite frankly rather mundane and uninteresting. The amount of stuff to interact with, relative to the amount of things that are interesting to interact with, is usually quite high.

Have you really given any thought to how you want this fortress to play out? Do you anticipate one long running battle? A campaign of raids by the PC's to whittle down the forces of their enemy? Are you going to try to separate the fortress into wards or levels, with inner wards not running to the support of outer wards, and how this gets close enough to versimlitude?

Celebrim said:

Well, you didn't exactly start with an easy concept either.

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Haha, par for the course for me.

Before I get into what I generally do, the big problem you are going to find with dungeons like you describe is that there is a tension between verisimilitude and playability. A fortress is designed to be wary, to spread an alert, and to summon all the forces in the dungeon to resist attack in a coordinated manner. That's how real fortresses work, and there architecture is constructed around that goal.

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Totally. Where necessary, I'll sacrifice in favor of playability.

To be fair, there is another fortress (Krak al-Niraan, from A Dozen and One Adventures) the PCs are likely to encounter, which is much more of a military fortress with overwhelming strength of arms, lookouts, ballistae, ramparts, etc. With that one, I'm expecting lateral thinking from the PCs... for example, they might try to undermine the coalition of monstrous humanoids comprising the mercenary army... or they might try to sneak in using stealth/magic (in which case I may use a homebrew supplement I found called Strongholds & Sentinels to deal with stages of raising an alarm, rather than the alarm being raised all at once). That said, there is the opportunity for some really epic combat, if that's the route they choose or end up in.

So for my current project – Krak al-Mazhar – I'm aiming for something different than that fortress...

• It dates back to a very old civilization (~1,000 years), founded by mystics who were corrupted into becoming the Brotherhood of True Flame
• Sulfur mines are source of revenue for the Brotherhood, operated by their slaves
• Arcane tutelage of Shig'harakh (lesser flame mages)
• Indoctrination of Flamedeath holy slayers
• Meeting place for several powerful leaders/mages on the Council of Beys
• Spell research
• Expeditions through a portal to the Plane of Fire
• Reception hall for efreeti ambassadors/messengers
• Lava tubes and caverns amidst the caldera hide secrets

So it's a bunch of things rolled into one: Corrupted Sacred Site, Fortress, Mine, "University", "Embassy", Planar Gate, and "Wizard's Tower."

The other problem with fortresses is that they are mostly living space, which is quite frankly rather mundane and uninteresting. The amount of stuff to interact with, relative to the amount of things that are interesting to interact with, is usually quite high.

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Yeah, I noticed that with the fortress in A Dozen and One Adventures. Great verisimilitude down to the latrines and arrowslits, but iffy playability.

My initial list of areas in Krak al-Mazhar during my brainstorming was...

Alchemy Lab
Barracks, Flamedeath
Barracks, Imperishable Mamluks
Crematorium
Dungeon
Great Garden
Infernal Hall
Initiation Chamber
Kitchens
Library
Phoenix Egg Chamber (?)
Portal of Fire
Quarters, Shig’harakh
Quarters, Slave
Shrine to Kossuth
Summoning Chamber
Teleportation Circle
Training Grounds
Treasure Vault
Tower of the Bonfire

Have you really given any thought to how you want this fortress to play out? Do you anticipate one long running battle? A campaign of raids by the PC's to whittle down the forces of their enemy? Are you going to try to separate the fortress into wards or levels, with inner wards not running to the support of outer wards, and how this gets close enough to versimlitude?

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My approach has been the same as with my adventure writing – I want to provide multiple angles of approach for the PCs, literally in terms of different entrance options, but also figuratively in terms of whether they want to try a guerrilla warfare approach, field a small army of their own, blitzkrieg the dungeon, infiltrate the Brotherhood undercover, sneak in, etc.

The Brotherhood isn't a monolithic entity; due to the self-serving and tempestuous nature of the flame mages, there are often splinter groups branching off (according to AL-QADIM lore). It's sort of the nature of fire – it sends sparks out because maintaining a consistent flame is really difficult. While loyalist supporters of the leader (the Bonfire) are strongest in Krak al-Mazhar, there are other factions within the Brotherhood in play...

I have written up 4 of these so far:

1. The Scarabythra: Transmuters and diabolists seeking to create new forms of fire-resistant life in preparation for the “great convergence” with the Plane of Fire.
2. Tenth Circle / Cult of the Red Bull: Pyromaniacal followers of Imix stricken with a terrible curse.
3. Knights of the Fire Drake: Followers of the prophesied “Fire Drake” avatar of Kossuth, waging holy war against sea mages and marids against the Bonfire’s orders.
4. The Illuminated: False messiahs reprogramming victims with “holy” visions on the Plane of Fire then sending them forth as agents. (from the PLANESCAPE adventure The Eternal Boundary)

EDIT: And warming up my map-making skills which have lain dormant...

[SBLOCK=Quick Dungeon Painter map based on a 3-D model]

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You might want to look at the AngryGMs articles about building a 'megadungeon'. Not all the articles will necessarily be relevant but I think some will be. Particularly the ones about 'gating' and separateing the areas of the dungeon. I'm not building anything like that and still found them interesting.


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[MENTION=6791950]cmad1977[/MENTION] Yep, I've been absorbing his articles on megadungeons.

Branching paths w/ meaningful choices, circular routes, gating/blocking (when at a branching path only), previews, one-way passages, and shortcuts are all on my checklist.

Cross-posted this question rpg.net, and was encouraged to answer 5 basic questions about air/sleep/food/drink/egress...

How do they breathe? Most are resistant to fire damage which helps with breathing excessively hot air in places. Otherwise, there's ventilation thanks to a few shafts/lava tubes leading to the caldera's surface. Overlooks and "screen" doors (mashrabiya / jalis) let in airflow as well.

Where do they sleep? They sleep in areas away from the hazardous fumaroles, in quarters (for mages and priests) or barracks (for mamluks and holy slayers).

What do they eat? Precious little game lives in the Great Anvil, the most inhospitable desert in the land, however the Brotherhood do harvest scorpions and beetles, and hunt fire lizards, giant mason wasps, and dangerous salt worms (desert-adapted remorhaz). Because of this limited diet, they rely on trade with mysterious fierce janni tribes who don't mind charging exorbitant prices to the sinister cultists, or else shipments by their allied merchants usually via teleportation circle and sending stones (made of volcanic rock from the caldera). When food is scarce, they force captive janni to create food and water (a spell forbidden to their priests of Kossuth as it involves water).

What do they drink? There is an aquifer deep below the caldera, but it has become tainted with chlorides & sulfides. The alchemists and priests of the Brotherhood have devised a means of extracting the acids/poisons to yield pure water (as well as useful ingredients for more nefarious purposes). Additionally, the Brotherhood stockpiles water in the event that something happens to their water source, though these stockpiles wouldn't last longer than 1 week if rationed, less if not.

Where do they enter/exit? There are six major avenues into Krak al-Mazhar, the first five used by the Brotherhood, and the last exceedingly risky.

1. The first is via narrow fissures through the steep sloping "hills" around the caldera, that invariably lead to guarded bridges; three of these lead into the upper levels.
2. The second is the main gate, which opens into the heart of the caldera - this is used by slaves working sulfur mines, entry and exit for new initiates to the Brotherhood, for military drills, and for the very rare departing/incoming caravan.
3. A two-way portal (teleportation circle?) leads to Krak al-Mazhar from the sister military fortress of Krak al-Niraan far to the north, though only the Brotherhood's upper echelon know it exists.
4. A two-way portal to the Plane of Fire is used for welcoming efreet ambassadors/messengers and sending out initiates / exploration parties.
5. The Bonfire (the cult's leader) owns a golden mirror which he can use to open a temporary gate which he can also return through.
6. Lava tubes used by salt worms (remorhaz) and sand worms (purple worms) (remnants of past underground civilization?) trace their way under the fortress; they are kept at bay by the narrowness of the passages and by magical brass gongs that create a sound the worms dislike.

I'm likely not more experienced, but I shudder at the thought of a dungeon by the conventional definition of "series of underground rooms that may or may not have monsters in them." If only dungeon didn't start with a D, then D&D might have been more appropriately named Lairs and Dragons...(Domiciles and Dragons?)

Anyway, if I'm working on something small, I just sketch the thing up, with the eye of an architect (what's the purpose, what are the constraints, and given these, how do I make it interesting). Something bigger, I'll take a /donjon.bin.sh/ creation or something from the OGRE (http://www.enworld.org/forum/dnd_view_block.php?id=1770), and then add enough plausibility to make it worthwhile.

Don't forget Murphy's Law of Dungeon Creation: if your players CAN overlook it, they WILL overlook it.

Quickleaf said:

And then it struck me... in all the years I've DMed, I've mostly either adapted existing dungeons, created small five-room dungeons, or avoided dungeons altogether.

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Sounds exactly, what I ended up doing eventually, preferring it vastly over 'serious' dungeons.

When I started my career as a DM I used to create big dungeons, often using random charts to populate the rooms with little to no regard whether any of it made any sense. And how should I know better, given what I'd seen in official D&D modules?

Now, a big dungeon done well, that's hard to pull off, and I'm not sure it's worth the effort. I thought the 'Castle Whiterock' campaign was pretty good. But I shudder to think of having to create such a 'monster' of a dungeon myself. In other words, I suppose I can't help you there...

[MENTION=6685730]DMMike[/MENTION] I always forget about OGRE. Thanks for reminding me! And yes, "dungeon" is often D&D's quirky shorthand for "lair."
[MENTION=46713]Jhaelen[/MENTION] Maybe that was part of my thinking in the past. I saw plenty of examples I felt were sub-par so I kind of avoided it. Only after years of DMing and writing do I finally feel like I have what it takes to design a big dungeon well.

One of the first questions posed in 3e Dungeoncraft is What is the function of your dungeon in your campaign setting?

Dungeonscape said:

Before you set pencil to paper, you need to decide how the dungeon fits into your campaign setting. Take a moment to consider why the dungeon exists, how it interacts with the rest of the world, and what purpose it (and other dungeons) serve in the grand scheme of things. You could just say that dungeons are the ruins of a forgotten civilization, but many other interesting possibilities exist. Death Trap... Near Frontier... Agent of Evil... Legendary Location... The Bizarre...

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My hunch is Krak al-Mazhar fits as a Legendary Location...

Dungeoncraft also lists 10 possible traits of legendary locations. Here's how I see those applying to Krak al-Mazhar....

Last of its kind
No survivors: Anyone who goes is take prisoner, killed, or brainwashed/inducted
Artifacts: The Bonfire was gifted The Molten Throne by the sultan of the efreet
Mighty creatures
Lost civilizations: Al-Anwahar
Legendary figure: The Bonfire
Major threat: Brotherhood of True Flame
Unique: Within a caldera emitting blue fire
Weird magic: Borders the Plane of Fire & likely protected by forbiddance, guards and wards, and other high-level spells
World-shattering danger

So If I'm picking one of Dungeoncraft's functions of dungeons, I'd have to go with Legendary Location. The book suggests tying a legendary location it to legends and history of my campaign; this plays to the strengths of a legendary location which it lists as (1) allowing history of campaign world to directly affect play, and (2) foreshadow events planned for the current campaign.

Since I'm using this as (what will probably be) the final challenge or climax, I'm going to be seeding rumors about the location (even if the specifics of how to find it are secret) over the next five levels.

That helps.

I was getting a little tripped up on defining Krak al-Mazhar because it doesn't fit neatly into the 9 dungeon purposes outlined in the 5e DMG (i.e. Death Trap, Lair, Maze, Mine, Planar Gate, Stronghold, Temple/Shrine, Tomb, Treasure Vault). I feel like many of those could apply partially to the site.

Death Trap. It is used to ruthlessly train assassins and flame mages, so I imagine there's a gauntlet of tests (some known to recruits, some unknown) in there. Not the same as a Death Trap per se, but I'm definitely seeing a few trap patterns reappearing throughout the complex & deadly guardians at certain points.
Lair. There are lava tubes/caves that house trained monsters as well as salt worms (remorhaz) and sand worms (purple worms) further below. But in addition to the actual members of the Brotherhood there are a fair number of allied monsters inhabiting Krak al-Mazhar.
Maze. I'm definitely seeing one of the intents of Krak al-Mazhar's design being to deceive and confuse those first entering, as it's used in the indoctrination of new members of the Brotherhood...which is alluded to as a very original assassin approach (referring to the Hashashin or Nizari Ismailis method of brainwashing indoctrination). Perhaps more of a minor/secondary purpose.
Mine. There is a sulfur mine.
Planar Gate. The portal to the Plane of Fire and being constructed into a caldera are huge factors of the site.
Stronghold. It's absolutely, perhaps first and foremost, a base of operations for the Brotherhood of True Flame ruled by The Bonfire. Combined with this function are its "Embassy" (for Council of Beys & visiting efreet) & "University" (for flame mages) functions.
Temple/Shrine. An important part of the complex is the Shrine to Kossuth. Also, my premise is that the entire Krak al-Mazhar was corrupted along with the Brotherhood from the more neutral fire mystics they once were, so there are hints of a corrupted sacred site if the PCs search for it.
Tomb. More a minor/secondary purpose, but I envision famous flame mages interred there or perhaps revived as "burning dead" (e.g. Aganazzar, Abi-Dalzim, Daltim).
Treasure Vault. Not its original purpose, but Krak al-Mazhar is going to have some very nice treasure thanks to the Brotherhood's ongoing raids, hunting down of rival mages, and hoarding of wealth/magic.

My next step is listing out potential NPCs/monsters found in the dungeon. Going for a very tight theme, so I'm having to create/convert some new monsters (marked with *).

Any ideas for things I'm missing or would fit well given the theme (flame mages mystical stronghold in hostile desert)?

Krak al-Mazhar Monsters/NPCs (by CR)

• The Bonfire (CR ?)*
• Purple Worm (CR 15), as "sand worms", not allied with Brotherhood but part of environment
• Devil, Erinyes (CR 12)
• Tasked Genie, Guardian (CR 12)*
• Tasked Genie, Slayer (CR 11)*
• Fire Elemental Monolith (CR 11)* = bigger, badder fire elemental, hard to control
• Devil, Horned (CR 11) >> "Cornugon" CR 12 variant to give them some spellcasting (detect thoughts, wall of fire, etc.) and a whip attack supporting their role as gate guardians of Krak al-Mazhar
• Remorhaz (CR 11), as "salt worms", not allied with Brotherhood but part of environment
• Angel, Asuras (CR 8)* = fiery angel seeking its divine spark that was used to imbue The Bonfire with unnatural power, possibly a captive at first, later a difficult ally
• Assassin (CR 8) >> "Black Flame Zealot" CR 9 variant with innate spellcasting, Mage Slayer feat, and Unholy Immolation trait
• Hydra (CR 8) >> "Pyrohydra" CR 11 variant with fire-breathing and maximum hit points
• Agha of the Imperishable (CR 6)* = commanders of the Imperishable mamluks
• Blazing Skeleton (CR 6)* = former powerful flame mage returned in undeath by The Bonfire
• Cinderhaunt (CR 6)* = powerful souls (e.g. adventurers) killed by Brotherhood, revived in undeath by The Bonfire
• Priest of Kossuth (CR 6)*
• Shig'harakhi (CR 6)* = 7th level flame mages known as "lesser brethren" studying under The Bonfire
• Fire Elemental (CR 5) >> "Hidden Elemental" variant allowing them to disguise themselves as flame in braziers, torches, etc.
• Flamedeath Fedayeen (CR 4)* = holy slayers
• Flameskull (CR 4) >> "Elder Flameskull" CR 5 variant, with signature spells & special conditions to nullify their Rejuventation since these are none other than Abi-Dalzim, Aganazzar, and Daltim!
• Genie, Janni (CR 4)* = nomadic lesser genies of desert, some who are captives and superstitious against the Brotherhood, others who are led by a traitor and have a loose alliance with the Brotherhood
• Helmed Horror (CR 4) >> "Copper Automaton" variant
• Shadow Demon (CR 4) >> "Dark Reflection" variant, some kind of mimicking of PC abilities via an enchanted mirror
• Giant Scorpion (CR 3) >> "Fire Scorpion" CR 4 or 5 Variant with really nasty blood-burning venom
• Flame Horrors / Fire Grue / Harginn (CR 2)* = elemental raiders with magic-dampening powers
• Mamluk of the Imperishable (CR 2)* = insular slave-soldiers with magic tattoos granting fire protection
• Rug of Smothering (CR 2)

What I often start with is some disparate key elements - a boss or two, a few set-piece battles or scenarios, a few pictures in my head, some other inhabitants, an overall idea, and a vague plotline reason for a party to go there.

It looks like you've already got way more than that - good.

Next, I'll stick those elements that can be mapped onto a map without bothering much about joining them together unless particular elements are supposed to be together.

Then I'll fill in whatever bits are required to join it all together, including some empty rooms and - if multiple vertical levels are involved - lots of vertical access points. After that I'll worry about how to get in and out, preferably ending up with several entrances. After that I'll fill in the inhabitants whose locations aren't already set.

What I try to avoid, mostly because it just never seems to work for me, is starting with a main overall structure (e.g. castle, fortress, whatever) and then trying to shoehorn everything into it.

As for monsters, the only obvious things I don't see that would fit would be a Bulette or two outside and - to throw them off a bit - a few Mummies, in a hidden area isolated from all those fire-chuckers!

Lanefan