Martial Practice : Blood Demand

doctorbadwolf · Mar 5, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
Well, I'm not sure what would be special about a 'toned down' Epic, it would be "just a tedious amount more levels of paragon" IMHO.

However, the idea of EDs as an optional "over the top" mode of play for a game that OTHERWISE has just paragon, that makes sense. So PPs basically deliver all their goods by level 16, and then OPTIONALLY 17-20 could include an ED (obviously you'd have to tweak the mechanics a bit, but it would work). HoML could do something like this, as it already labels 17-20 as 'Epic'.

IMO, 30 levels of regular progression is strictly better than 20 levels.

If we drop down to 20, I'd say shorten themes to a lvl 1,3 and 5 feature, or combine them with paragon paths. But ideally, I want Epic to be a layer you can apply to the game optionally that doesn't replace anything. A purely additive layer that ramps the whole game up, including epic templates for each monster role/type, rules for epic hazards and challenges, etc.

I want to be able to play a group of Demi-gods, chosen, and destined Heroes straight from level 1, and I feel like 4e is 90% of the way to allowing that with an optional layer.

A while ago I took a look at the EDs for this purpose, and I think that you could just literally put them on top of the game at any level and they accomplish the goal.

Garthanos · Mar 5, 2017

Ofcourse if I did make it a skill power it would be available to Warlocks too....

AbdulAlhazred · Mar 5, 2017

doctorbadwolf said:
IMO, 30 levels of regular progression is strictly better than 20 levels.

If we drop down to 20, I'd say shorten themes to a lvl 1,3 and 5 feature, or combine them with paragon paths. But ideally, I want Epic to be a layer you can apply to the game optionally that doesn't replace anything. A purely additive layer that ramps the whole game up, including epic templates for each monster role/type, rules for epic hazards and challenges, etc.

I want to be able to play a group of Demi-gods, chosen, and destined Heroes straight from level 1, and I feel like 4e is 90% of the way to allowing that with an optional layer.

A while ago I took a look at the EDs for this purpose, and I think that you could just literally put them on top of the game at any level and they accomplish the goal.

Its an interesting idea I suppose. Though TBH, when I put on my game designer hat I have to think "why would I want to have one game that has two radically different modes of play?" There are appealing things about the idea, but IME games of this ilk rarely serve either master well.

doctorbadwolf · Mar 5, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
Its an interesting idea I suppose. Though TBH, when I put on my game designer hat I have to think "why would I want to have one game that has two radically different modes of play?" There are appealing things about the idea, but IME games of this ilk rarely serve either master well.

Looking past my irrationally vociferous hatred of the word "ilk"....<rage shudder> it's ok I'm ok now.

anyway, DnD 4e already does this. It just does it with higher levels.

Nor am I convinced that it even represents two radically different modes of play. I wouldn't call the old Bercules TV show radically different from the old Xena show or the old Beastmaster show. The heroes just have different power levels. Hercules goes on very similar adventures, he just can't be stabbed to death, while Xena can.

Likewise, a level 4 party with EDs would face different enemies, and have different long term enemies, and would still progressively get more competent/skilled/powerful, they just reappear after walking the planes for a day if they "die"or whatever, and their patrons, allies, and recurring enemies are more likely to be gods and such, rather than mayors and petty lords.

It basically just lets you combine the types of stories you can tell at higher tiers with heroic tier play, and lets you start out as Hercules type characters, without skipping 2/3 of the levels of the game, or jump straight into the greater complexity of high level play. Or have epic heroes in a group that just doesn't like high level gameplay.

But I don't see how any of that equals a radical shift in the type of game we are playing.

AbdulAlhazred · Mar 5, 2017

doctorbadwolf said:
Looking past my irrationally vociferous hatred of the word "ilk"....<rage shudder> it's ok I'm ok now.

anyway, DnD 4e already does this. It just does it with higher levels.

Nor am I convinced that it even represents two radically different modes of play. I wouldn't call the old Bercules TV show radically different from the old Xena show or the old Beastmaster show. The heroes just have different power levels. Hercules goes on very similar adventures, he just can't be stabbed to death, while Xena can.

Likewise, a level 4 party with EDs would face different enemies, and have different long term enemies, and would still progressively get more competent/skilled/powerful, they just reappear after walking the planes for a day if they "die"or whatever, and their patrons, allies, and recurring enemies are more likely to be gods and such, rather than mayors and petty lords.

It basically just lets you combine the types of stories you can tell at higher tiers with heroic tier play, and lets you start out as Hercules type characters, without skipping 2/3 of the levels of the game, or jump straight into the greater complexity of high level play. Or have epic heroes in a group that just doesn't like high level gameplay.

But I don't see how any of that equals a radical shift in the type of game we are playing.

Eh, maybe it doesn't. I'm not much in the habit of telling people things are impossible just because maybe I don't think its the best idea ever. All I'm saying is that ANY RPG is likely to benefit from a tight focus. Perhaps there's really no significant difference here and its effectively just adding a few optional rules to the game.

I DO think the idea of low level 'Epic' play is a coherent idea. And yes, in some sense it is just taking 4e's concept of heroes and heroic tier one step further. As you say, this is why Epic tier works when tacked onto heroic/paragon tiers in 4e. Given that I don't think 30 levels is really ideal, I don't have an issue with various ways to collapse it. Maybe it will work great. I say go for it!

Tony Vargas · Mar 5, 2017

AbdulAlhazred said:
All I'm saying is that ANY RPG is likely to benefit from a tight focus.

I love the way Hero System is tightly focused on being generic. ;P

Seriously, 'cept for what happened with skills, best system evar.

Garthanos · Mar 5, 2017

So this is how it looks in my CB

Garthanos · Mar 6, 2017

Tony Vargas said:
I love the way Hero System is tightly focused on being generic. ;P

Seriously, 'cept for what happened with skills, best system evar.

Lacked a cool role system... AND was hugely demanding on the DM

Tony Vargas · Mar 6, 2017

Garthanos said:
...cool role system...

I'm not sure what that'd be. Care to elaborate?

AND was hugely demanding on the DM

Glutton for punishment, I guess - thing I like best about 5e is running it, too, and it's just brutally 'Empowering.'

Garthanos · Mar 6, 2017

Tony Vargas said:
I'm not sure what that'd be. Care to elaborate?

One idea I had was skill packages to explicitly encourage creation of characters along the 4e roles ...

Martial Practice : Blood Demand

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

Tony Vargas

Legend

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Tony Vargas

Legend

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

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