D&D 5E Out of the Abyss Advice Requested

Valdier said:

I have read it multiple times. You mentioned



I mentioned 3 of them... You didn't like those though because you want to move the goal posts. Your response? Zuggtmoy... the "non-combat" demon lord who is trying to take over the world by getting married. Yeah, your team of optimized PC's can defeat her (especially with bag of hit point DM'ing you seem to favor).

What it comes down to... we read the module differently and certainly run it differently. Your experience clearly isn't mine, or others who have responded in here. If your gaming style doesn't work for your group, I'm sorry. Luckily most of us don't have that issue it seems. Enjoy your game

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First, I was talking about Juiblex, why you're saying about Zuggtmoy? Second, there isn't wrong with I said at begginig, Juiblex is a CR23, and as setted in page 214, if party get the poison Imunity from Araumaycos, will be a piece of cake even with the best terrain condition to Juiblex. You mentioned the 3 strongest ones, lol that are CR26 and CR25. But you really think that Demogorgon as he setted at page 219 is a dignified match to 5 lvl 15 characters at that point of campaing? Yeah, I prefer to change what the book say to be an epic battle instead of put him in an horrible ground just to give him some chance agaist the players, or just have a "meh" battle.

Didn't understood the last part of your post, my DM's game style fit perfectly well in my table, what doesn't fit in my table is the challange rate of encounters in the book, that's isn't a issue, just a statement that I did many changes. Why you got offended because I said so many encounters need to be changed? Even you said: "I moved on to 95% set piece encounters with the occasional "you run into monsters, roll initiative"...", I changed more things than you but you changed many things too, so why I direct criticism about my game style?
Looks like you want so much to be right and I'm wrong that you missed that half of the time you agreed with my initial post that you will change a lot in that campaing, so who cares the level you'll start?

zaratan said:

First, I was talking about Juiblex, why you're saying about Zuggtmoy? Second, there isn't wrong with I said at begginig, Juiblex is a CR23, and as setted in page 214, if party get the poison Imunity from Araumaycos, will be a piece of cake even with the best terrain condition to Juiblex. You mentioned the 3 strongest ones, lol that are CR26 and CR25. But you really think that Demogorgon as he setted at page 219 is a dignified match to 5 lvl 15 characters at that point of campaing? Yeah, I prefer to change what the book say to be an epic battle instead of put him in an horrible ground just to give him some chance agaist the players, or just have a "meh" battle.

Didn't understood the last part of your post, my DM's game style fit perfectly well in my table, what doesn't fit in my table is the challange rate of encounters in the book, that's isn't a issue, just a statement that I did many changes. Why you got offended because I said so many encounters need to be changed? Even you said: "I moved on to 95% set piece encounters with the occasional "you run into monsters, roll initiative"...", I changed more things than you but you changed many things too, so why I direct criticism about my game style?
Looks like you want so much to be right and I'm wrong that you missed that half of the time you agreed with my initial post that you will change a lot in that campaing, so who cares the level you'll start?

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Honestly... this is so badly written I'm not interested in putting in the time to translate this to English.

You keep moving goal posts and denying things you say in your previous posts, even when I quote them.

I'm not offended by anything you posted... Enjoy your game

Valdier said:

You keep moving goal posts and denying things you say in your previous posts, even when I quote them.

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I didn't denied nothing, how demon lords are present in OotA when you face them, are easy match. Them you suggest about the 3 strongest demon lords as they are presented in the appendix, but you don't fight them as they are presented in the appendix, in fact, two of them you don't fight at all if you strictly follow the campaing.
And yeah, I really think 5 lvl 11 players will defeat Juiblex easily and even demogorgon as how he's presented in page the end of campaing, not easily like Juiblex, but will defeat him.
And if you say "just don't follow exactly what campaing present", I'll agree with you, because is exactly what I wrote since beginning.

zaratan said:

lol, read again about Juiblex in the book, as they set the encounter, he don't have half of you state. in fact, there is a chance to fight him with imunity to poison, how easy this can be?
You fight him in his weadding, make the place a tiny hole just to avoid the range attacks looks funny to me.
Contagion take 1 action, need touch, affect just one creature and by RAI only start work after 3 failed saves.
He moves 30 feet without any form to move more unless dash, you really think this is ok to a CR23 creature? Well this isn't about DM's interpreting the stat block, is about changing that because was bad planned. any force movement and he can't reach the player, while eject slime don't recharge, his range attack do 4d6, he can do that 4x round, this is ok for a CR23?
Juiblex problem is that he dont have any resouces to reach players, what we can do? Change that.

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Zaratan, I think part of the disconnect here is that you seem to be speaking with a lot of exaggeration and we don't understand whether you are doing so instead of trying to be literal. Many of your own statements seem to be contradicted by you later when someone takes it to task.

With that said, the general underlying theme you seem to be trying to get across is very helpful. That being, by my interpretation, that the adventure cannot be run word-for-word as written and, perhaps in some isolated instances, as designed. That moderate to heavy intervention and/or enhancement by the DM will likely be necessary depending on the type of game you are trying to run. This is precisely what I thought I was getting into before I bought the book.

CydKnight said:

Zaratan, I think part of the disconnect here is that you seem to be speaking with a lot of exaggeration and we don't understand whether you are doing so instead of trying to be literal. Many of your own statements seem to be contradicted by you later when someone takes it to task.

With that said, the general underlying theme you seem to be trying to get across is very helpful. That being, by my interpretation, that the adventure cannot be run word-for-word as written and, perhaps in some isolated instances, as designed. That moderate to heavy intervention and/or enhancement by the DM will likely be necessary depending on the type of game you are trying to run. This is precisely what I thought I was getting into before I bought the book.

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Perfect, Besides of my exaggeration, you get exactly the point. The prot is awesome, there are lot of great details, but there is many thing that don't work how they should. The first half is "semi-sandbox", so you can reach the citie at lvl 2 or 7 (or even more), of course the encounters set are a middle term, so most part of the time you'll be buff or debuff encounters. Random encounters are worse, they don't fit the 6-8 encounter/day, so they will be too easy or too boring, you can use the week long rest rule, ignore them or change all.

i didn't overreacted about some parts, Juiblex fight will really be a piece of slime cake if you let that how the book propose:
Juiblex start with 200hp, with AC18 he will be killed in one round agaist 5 level 11 charactes with magic itens if all focus on damage.
No more legendary resistances, with all his condition immunities, this doesn't change that much.
Need recharge eject slime, this is his good long range attack, he'll not survive a second turn to use it. And how players find Juiblex, they'll not start the fight at 10ft of him.
no lairs or regional effects
myconids can take attacks instead of characters
Araumycos can give immunity to poison damage and poison condition (Juiblex most attacks are acid, but his best legendary action is about poison).

Yes, players can avoid that fight too, but if you use it, change accordingly with the party's level.

CydKnight said:

Zaratan, I think part of the disconnect here is that you seem to be speaking with a lot of exaggeration and we don't understand whether you are doing so instead of trying to be literal. Many of your own statements seem to be contradicted by you later when someone takes it to task.

With that said, the general underlying theme you seem to be trying to get across is very helpful. That being, by my interpretation, that the adventure cannot be run word-for-word as written and, perhaps in some isolated instances, as designed. That moderate to heavy intervention and/or enhancement by the DM will likely be necessary depending on the type of game you are trying to run. This is precisely what I thought I was getting into before I bought the book.

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The only issue I have with that idea is that I think the designers fully expect you to creater your own encounters. There aren't really a lot of encounters described in it, more "this is what's here, this is what it's doing". If you fight *some* of what's there it will be easy (later on, earlier it will be hard) if you fight *all* of what's there, you will die (usually).

He's absolutely right that there are almost no *balanced* encounters in the entire module. That is up to the DM. I guess some DMs find that a lot of work? At any rate, I think they meant it that way. They probably could have designed it better.

In my experience you also tend to come and go to the same locations at various times. There is nothing to suggest what might be happening there later as opposed to earlier.

For example, I am running it tonight where they are returning to Gracklestugh. It's been months in-game (and longer in the real-world) since they were there last. What has changed? Well, I have to make it up based on what they did and didn't do last time. (Trouble for me is, I've run it before with another group, and I can't entirely remember which group did what!)

But the adventure helps me not at all, because there is only one section on Gracklestugh, and it's from early on. Even though there is a later event (going to the Labyrinth) that there is no reason NOT to retrace your steps on the way to. (I guess if you made a ton of enemies?)



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FitzTheRuke said:

The only issue I have with that idea is that I think the designers fully expect you to creater your own encounters. There aren't really a lot of encounters described in it, more "this is what's here, this is what it's doing". If you fight *some* of what's there it will be easy (later on, earlier it will be hard) if you fight *all* of what's there, you will die (usually).

He's absolutely right that there are almost no *balanced* encounters in the entire module. That is up to the DM. I guess some DMs find that a lot of work? At any rate, I think they meant it that way. They probably could have designed it better.

In my experience you also tend to come and go to the same locations at various times. There is nothing to suggest what might be happening there later as opposed to earlier.

For example, I am running it tonight where they are returning to Gracklestugh. It's been months in-game (and longer in the real-world) since they were there last. What has changed? Well, I have to make it up based on what they did and didn't do last time. (Trouble for me is, I've run it before with another group, and I can't entirely remember which group did what!)

But the adventure helps me not at all, because there is only one section on Gracklestugh, and it's from early on. Even though there is a later event (going to the Labyrinth) that there is no reason NOT to retrace your steps on the way to. (I guess if you made a ton of enemies?)

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If it helps, there is a small section on revisiting places later in the book that touches on what has possibly changed in the various cities?

Valdier said:

If it helps, there is a small section on revisiting places later in the book that touches on what has possibly changed in the various cities?

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Yes, I just read it last night. I believe it is in Chapter 9.

EDIT: It's actually Chapter 10. Chapter 9 is Mantol-Derith.

Valdier said:

If it helps, there is a small section on revisiting places later in the book that touches on what has possibly changed in the various cities?

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Really? Huh. Never noticed.

I can somewhat corroborate that - if you do start with your PCs a little higher (as I did) - many of the later encounters, especially the random ones, become somewhat of a cakewalk for the heroes.

I really ramped up (often increasing the amount of, or adding additional monsters) those encounters, but many of them were still quite the yawn for my players, as they buzz-sawed through them.