D&D 5E DM campaign disputes.

Bad move by the DM if he killed your PCs and took items of theirs in absentia. I don't have a problem with the DM having other players in the same campaign but different game. But having this level of consequence in a situation where you weren't able to advocate for your PC is not how I would treat my players.

Sounds like there's a lot of dysfunctional behaviours here, including the need for a player to gather opinions from the internet to support some kind of "case against the DM" (sorry, but that's what it sounds like).

Bottom line is, the DM is the boss, and if you don't like your boss and/or aspects of their behaviour...

If you get on well with them, and think there's a possibility you could help them improve, then you try and have a mature conversation about your perspectives, see if you can agree on some changes.

It you find them an irredeemable jerk / idiot / etc, you move on...

hastur_nz said:

Sounds like there's a lot of dysfunctional behaviours here, including the need for a player to gather opinions from the internet to support some kind of "case against the DM" (sorry, but that's what it sounds like).

Bottom line is, the DM is the boss, and if you don't like your boss and/or aspects of their behaviour...

If you get on well with them, and think there's a possibility you could help them improve, then you try and have a mature conversation about your perspectives, see if you can agree on some changes.

It you find them an irredeemable jerk / idiot / etc, you move on...

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As a DM I find this post offensive. The DM is not the boss. There is no Boss in D&D. The DM may be the finally arbiter of the rules of the game, but that does not make them the boss.

In addition, I completely understand if someone wants to come to the internet to gather opinions about such outlandish behavior. They want to understand if they are being unreasonable or if the DM is. That is the mature thing to do! In addition, this gathering of information should only help inform a mature conversation about a serious breach of trust between the DM and his/her players.

Don't be so easily offended... It's a rough analogy... without a DM, you don't have a D&D game, you have some sort of collaborative story-telling thing; without a boss, you don't have a business, you have some kind of hippy community or whatever.

The DM does most of the work, offline, to find / create / modify/ etc the adventures, NPC's, plot points, etc etc. The DM usually resolves problems on and off the table, maybe with help from the other players, but ultimately the DM almost always is 'in charge'. It's not a collective, it's a hierarchy, and the DM holds the 'top position' by virtue of the role they play at the table. That doesn't make them a dictator, although 'benign dictator' is a fair analogy for some people.

Certainly a good DM listens to their players, and everything they do, is designed to help make the game fun for everyone (DM and players). If the DM doesn't listen, and annoys the players enough, the players leave. I've personally been a player in a campaign that we gave up on after only a single session, because what the DM wanted, vs what we players wanted, were simply too far apart to resolve. We tried to reason with the DM, but he just didn't "get it". "The Boss" lost all his "Employees", and his "Business" fell over. It's a rough analogy.

I'm not using the word "Boss" to say the DM tells everyone what to do, but yes the DM is, ultimately, in the chair that makes or breaks a D&D game. If you're lucky, good employees can get away with an incompetent Boss", just like a good group of players might get away with an incompetent DM as long as they have some level of self-awareness on that. But it's more likely that a bad boss / DM, will ruin the company / game...

Playing another person's character without their knowledge or consent is a MASSIVE table etiquette violation, IMO. I think I can reasonably say this would apply to 90% of tables. Now, understandably it's possible for your character to die when you're not around, maybe you miss a session, the party keeps going and then someone hits the "BIG RED BUTTON" and your character just happens to be in the blast radius.

Now, your DM may not have intended to have the new players fight your characters and was simply "running" your characters as passersby, but I still feel like we're missing something from this story, maybe he only took greater action with your characters when they were attacked, maybe he wasn't expecting that.

You and the rest of your group need to sit down with your DM and talk about this. If the "old party" is against this and the DM and the "new party" are in favor, my advice is to split. This group isn't going to get better. The new players are going to feel empowered to abuse the old party and the DM is going to cover for them if they do.

The DM is generally "in charge" at the table, but like any functioning group activity, the DM's position of power relies on the support of the players.

hastur_nz said:

Don't be so easily offended... It's a rough analogy... .

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What I took offense to was the implication that the DM's behavior was acceptable because he was the "Boss." I am not easily offended (just read some of the arguments I get in this forum), but as a DM I found the actions of that DM completely disgusting. Thus my reaction to your post based on my previous understanding. However, after reading your clarification I understand your perspective better and I think the intent of your OP. Thank you for clarifying.

hastur_nz said:

It's a rough analogy.

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Yes it is. A boss can have business without employees, but a DM can't truly play D&D without players. It is a cooperative game and the players can move on if they don't like the actions of the DM.

dave2008 said:

[...] as a DM I found the actions of that DM completely disgusting. Thus my reaction to your post based on my previous understanding. However, after reading your clarification I understand your perspective better and I think the intent of your OP. Thank you for clarifying.

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All good! I've spent an many an age as DM, and played on and off since 3e. I too suspect the DM in question is a passive-aggressive d!ck, but who really knows. As noted by many: players shouldn't put up with DM's they can't work with, and visa versa (lord knows I've also put up with a couple of hard to manage players years ago, more than I should have).

Personally I do recall I actually did kill one of my player's PC's in Curse of Strahd, when he was away that session, but the context of that was a very dramatic moment right when that particular PC found his 'quest item' but his player wasn't around and was also leaving us for good soon thereafter. I controlled his PC, ran him right up to his 'quest item' which happened to be right next to Strahd, then on Strahd's turn he got kinda lucky and killed the PC in one round; a few rounds later, the rest of the PC's were running away from a near-TPK, and Strahd dragged the dead body away. However I did all this for 'plot reasons' and explained it fully to the player just after... I then helped him come back next session, in dramatic fashion, as a Revenant, which was fun and gave his PC a thirst for vengeance and also limited lifespan (same as the player, who was leaving town in a couple of months). The key point here being I did that with a player I've known for about ten years, and who I knew wouldn't take offense (he loves weird things, and in fact chose to be a revenant back in an old 4e campaign), and I helped him transition into his new 'form'. Certainly it wasn't something I'd ever consider in any other circumstance, for the obvious reasons... That's just an interesting counter-example; every other day, I'll write the PC whose player can't make it, out of the session, and "write them back in" as soon as they come back, thereby avoiding any messy complications like what's the PC doing, why can't they help us, what if they get killed, etc etc.

DM messed up. That's okay. "Erase, erase." And start up again a touch earlier and find a better way to incorporate these other players.


-Brad

hastur_nz said:

Don't be so easily offended... It's a rough analogy... without a DM, you don't have a D&D game, you have some sort of collaborative story-telling thing; without a boss, you don't have a business, you have some kind of hippy community or whatever.

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As a hippie, I find this post offensive.

Sorry, just kidding. Couldn't resist.