High Strength Monk

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
[MENTION=6689191]Hillsy7[/MENTION] You have caught most of it. The problem is that monks cannot ever use any armor or shields to boost their AC, even if they gain the proficiency to do so through other means. The minute they do, several of their most key abilities no loner function, such as martial arts and I think even some of their ki abilities.

Edit: You would lose access to Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement by wearing armor or using shields, two abilities that define a monk. No other class not only has no access to armor, but are prohibited from using it. And even Barbarians, who have the Unarmored Defense, do not lose access to any of their abilities by wearing armor except Unarmored Defense. This means a monk that chooses Strength must either accept they are going to get hit nearly at will (as a front line melee engager with middling HP, not great longevity there), or increase their armor while losing the thing that makes them a monk.
 
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Guest 6801328

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I've just had a skim back through all the abilities - and I've kind of realised something...

There's no such thing as a DEX monk. It seems we explicitly assume a Monk keys off DEX, but aside from unarmed attacks using DEX (instead of strength) and Deflect Missiles - absolutely nothing a monk does outside of the normal rules for every class talks about Dexterity. Casting and saves run off Wisdom. Attacks are jsut attacks made with either STR or DEX. The only change to AC is a WIS bonus. Your Ki abilities force opponents to make saves. Even your Evasion is based off the effect AFTER you've made a DEX save. It doesn't augment it in any way.

Take, for example, a very average Human Monk with an ability array of STR14, C14, D14, I13, W14,C12. Currently, with their abilities, he has zero benefits to using DEX over STR for anything. His DEX isn't improved by any of his abilities when applied to a calculation. None. Therefore, at this point if you were to build a specific "STR" Monk, what would they do better than now? And if there is something, doesn't that make it inherently "better" than the normal monk (By boosting it's STR when it uses these abilities)?

So actually what the Monk does is *Synergise* better with the existing DEX rules (namely the AC calcs). But that isn't necessarily a problem. For example the Barbarian explicitly states it's abilities key off STR, and Paladin's fighting styles are mainly heavy armour and STR focused - they Synergise better with the STR rules (Heavy weapons and Rage abilities).

So actually, building a STR monk has nothing to do with the class at all - it's a fundamental disagreement with how AC is mechanically calculated (with regards to DEX), and the desire of players to maximise AC for a melee character like a monk.

Well, yes. And:
- AC is pretty important in 5e, especially for a melee class.
- A strength monk is a great concept to build a sub-class off of.

I can see that in more old-school games (rolling 3d6) it would probably work out just fine, but if everybody else at the table has an 18 and a 16 by level 4 a strength monk is going to feel gimped.
 

Hillsy7

First Post
[MENTION=6689191]Hillsy7[/MENTION] You have caught most of it. The problem is that monks cannot ever use any armor or shields to boost their AC, even if they gain the proficiency to do so through other means. The minute they do, several of their most key abilities no loner function, such as martial arts and I think even some of their ki abilities.

There are 3 abilities affected by wearing armour are: Unarmoured defence (DUH!), unarmoured Movement, and Martial Arts. Ki attacks still work, it's just the flurry of blows damage stays at basic unarmed damage (1, I think)

However, they do have a significant amount of abilities that reduce damage and allow them to disengage, so they *can* handle a lower AC than a typical Melee character. So again, a Monk Synergises really well with the DEX rules, but it doesn't affected any rules around DEX, and it ONLY affects AC, and those rules are identical for everyone, from Barbarians to Wizards.

Like I said, one of the key issues seems to be that players think they MUST have the maximum available AC their class deserves, and therefore prioritises one decision over another to maximise AC. In this instance, it is literally the only thing stopping some players from making a STR monk, because they might see a drop of 2-3 in AC. This could easily be softened by a generous GM (Bracers of Defence)
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
Right. So wearing armor prevents you from using a bonus action for an additional attack since you wouldn't get martial arts, and if you did use Flurry, you would use a bonus action for a maximum of 2 damage.

If you use strength without armor, you spend all your ki points on defense, meaning despite having strength you'll actually be attacking less and hence doing less damage. If you disengage, you can't put as much distance between yourself and the attacker. So what's the upside of using strength for a monk? What does he trade off with in order to make up for what he is sacrificing?

As a monk only gets a d8 HP (lower than all other front line martial classes), a reduced AC is a pretty big hit to take. Unlike barbarians who are also front line melee, but get Unarmored defense, ability to use shields and armor if they choose without interrupting use of other class abilities, the best HP in the game, and damage reduction when raging, this is a significant difference.

Monks can choose strength, but I would argue they suffer more greatly by doing so than other sub-optimal builds. And based on the design of 5e, a 2-3 point drop in AC for a frontline melee class is HUGE.
 
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Hillsy7

First Post
Well, yes. And:
- AC is pretty important in 5e, especially for a melee class.
- A strength monk is a great concept to build a sub-class off of.

I can see that in more old-school games (rolling 3d6) it would probably work out just fine, but if everybody else at the table has an 18 and a 16 by level 4 a strength monk is going to feel gimped.

See above about AC and damage and whatnot - I don't disagree that it's not 'Optimal', and that you would need a decent grasp of the rules and 5e tactics to completely paper over the fact you're stuck at AC 16 (20 WIS, 12 DEX), but I'm saying the AC rules are pushing Monks towards DEX, not anything to do with the Monk Class (By comparison, Barbarians specify rage damage requires a STR attack).

So here's my problem with the subclass idea - if a Monk player chooses to have identical STR and DEX, none of the current rules or abilities make one or the other "better". What I've seen proposed around STR monks either a) burn one of the "Way" perks to swap in STR to AC, making it a worse choice than DEX options, or b) adds STR to AC for free and then adds Abilities that make STR "Better", at which point you have a DEX monk, that gets no benefit to abilities for High DEX, compared to a STR monk which does. And so the balance goes off whack again.

And finally, if you just make a subclass that Swaps in STR to AC, but provides no other perks for having high STR, why as a player are you so invested in a STR based Monk? And that, fundamentally, poses a significantly deeper question about possible solutions (Bareknuckle fighter or barbarian, refluffing Stats, etc) that simply swapping STR for DEX.......

Of course I'm largely viewing this from a limited perspective (mine) and the fact I'd accept that building a STR monk would mean I'd be taking an AC hit because of my stubborn character concept.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
VHuman - 16 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Wis, 10 Cha, 8 Int - Take Toughness at 1st level to make up for slight reduction in AC
 

Hillsy7

First Post
Right. So wearing armor prevents you from using a bonus action for an additional attack since you wouldn't get martial arts, and if you did use Flurry, you would use a bonus action for a maximum of 2 damage.
You can still dual-wield if you want, it's just your bonus action attack is dependent on it. Also if its an unarmed attack, you still get Ability Modifier damage, so technically 12 rather than 2. But yes, you will take a damage dip if you stuck to punching and didn't pick up tavern brawler.

If you use strength without armor, you spend all your ki points on defense, meaning despite having strength you'll actually be attacking less and hence doing less damage. If you disengage, you can't put as much distance between yourself and the attacker. So what's the upside of using strength for a monk? What does he trade off with in order to make up for what he is sacrificing?
But you do have a higher AC. Again dual wielding maintains the number of attacks. Also disengaging and not being able to "run away" does infer he can just run after you again. Attack the guy standing next to the barbarian - not so much.

As a monk only gets a d8 HP (lower than all other front line martial classes), a reduced AC is a pretty big hit to take. Unlike barbarians who are also front line melee, but get Unarmored defense, ability to use shields and armor if they choose without interrupting use of other class abilities, the best HP in the game, and damage reduction when raging, this is a significant difference.
Well, for a start if you could somehow get into armour (Fighter Dip), you'd have a screaming high AC compared to a bread and butter Monk......Otherwise you'd be occupying a similar tactical space to a rogue, agreed. You still get Deflect Missiles and Evasion - Decent damage mitigation - you do still have ki not tied up in flurry of blows if you don't want it. But yeah, they'd be more squishy than most other melee classes and so would have to rely on tactics more.

Monks can choose strength, but I would argue they suffer more greatly by doing so than other sub-optimal builds. And based on the design of 5e, a 2-3 point drop in AC for a frontline melee class is HUGE.

Again, I don't disagree - all i'm saying is that everything you've said is about maintaining a high AC, which is more about the fundamental rules of the game and the balance therein, than a Monk being built for DEX. In a more forgiving game type where lethality is lower, and the GM gives you some AC boosting kit....you can play a STR Monk as is.

But yes, of course it is sub-optimal, as are quite a lot of builds - I've actually poorly represented my article by going into the detail, because I broadly agree. My point is, a monk is DEX based because of the Design of D&D AC, not by class intention. And that is, picking a Monk with the 13,13,13,12,12,12 array will give you identical problems. That's just how D&D works. Once you say that array is impossible to play for one class, you're better off changing the entire game.
 

Xeviat

Hero
I talked with the player. The idea for the concept is someone who is channeling their ki into tremendous, supernatural Strength. She imagines the character blocking attacks rather than dodging them, and waiting for openings to make big attacks rather than a flurry of little attacks.

I’m already working on a variant monk that has more options for their ki abilities. Combining that with her concept makes me think Monk is the way to go.

I don’t want to use Str to AC instead of Dex. I think I’ll use Wis to AC instead of Dex, but allow light armor. If her character has a decent Dex, her AC won’t suffer too much at 1st and 2nd level.

I do like the idea of a mountain stance as an early ability. Stand your ground, get an AC bonus, and a reaction attack against attackers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

LapBandit

First Post
I allow STR + WIS for AC at my table, one player (a Goliath monk) took me up on it and it made for a very interesting and not overpowered at all monk. I also made an archetype but he didn't use it.
 

Hawk Diesel

Adventurer
You can still dual-wield if you want, it's just your bonus action attack is dependent on it. Also if its an unarmed attack, you still get Ability Modifier damage, so technically 12 rather than 2. But yes, you will take a damage dip if you stuck to punching and didn't pick up tavern brawler.

That's assuming a 20 strength. Gonna be a few levels before you can get there. So what about the level 1-3 monk that needs to survive long enough to make it there? At that level if they hit with both attacks they deal 8 damage over two flurry attacks assuming a strength of 16, where the Dex monk without that problem deals an average of 11 damage assuming he is using unarmed strike, and an average of 13 assuming he is using a shortsword. This also assumes a game that allows feats, and taking those feats also reduces how high you can pump your stats. So a strength based build needs to take a feat just to sort of keep up with a dex based build that can also forgo the feat and increase their stat, or needs to use a second weapon which without taking additional proficiencies or class dips limits the second weapon to a shortsword. Seems like a lot of hoops to jump through for one build to just even keep up with the other.

But you do have a higher AC. Again dual wielding maintains the number of attacks. Also disengaging and not being able to "run away" does infer he can just run after you again. Attack the guy standing next to the barbarian - not so much.

It technically maintains the number of attacks, but those attacks deal less damage and don't benefit from the strength modifier without Flurry of Blows. So without multiclassing for a fighting style, a strength based build doesn't even benefit from their strength score while a dex based one does.

And yes, disengaging does not mean they will follow, but hit-and-run tactics are one of the reasons a monk can fight in melee without needing as much HP or the damage resistance of a Barbarian. Once again, strength-based builds seem to sacrifice a great deal while not providing any incentive to go that route.

Well, for a start if you could somehow get into armour (Fighter Dip), you'd have a screaming high AC compared to a bread and butter Monk......Otherwise you'd be occupying a similar tactical space to a rogue, agreed. You still get Deflect Missiles and Evasion - Decent damage mitigation - you do still have ki not tied up in flurry of blows if you don't want it. But yeah, they'd be more squishy than most other melee classes and so would have to rely on tactics more.

That assumes that this player wants to take a fighter dip, or that this game allows multiclassing. And why be a monk at all if they are just essentially a fighter since they wouldn't get their Martial Arts ability, which I argue is THE defining feature of the monk. Additionally, while evasion and deflect missiles is nice, you still have to deal with the frontline attacks. Which means either you are always using Dodge, or attempting to hit-and-run, but much less effectively than a dex based monk could.

Again, I don't disagree - all i'm saying is that everything you've said is about maintaining a high AC, which is more about the fundamental rules of the game and the balance therein, than a Monk being built for DEX. In a more forgiving game type where lethality is lower, and the GM gives you some AC boosting kit....you can play a STR Monk as is.

But yes, of course it is sub-optimal, as are quite a lot of builds - I've actually poorly represented my article by going into the detail, because I broadly agree. My point is, a monk is DEX based because of the Design of D&D AC, not by class intention. And that is, picking a Monk with the 13,13,13,12,12,12 array will give you identical problems. That's just how D&D works. Once you say that array is impossible to play for one class, you're better off changing the entire game.

Please don't take my comments as hostile. That's not my intention. But I disagree that the Dex based monk option is JUST about AC. Using anything but a Dex based monk nerfs the other defining monk abilities and requires so much work to make it even playable that it is not worth it. Yes, I could make a wizard that only wants to go into melee, but that character is not going to live long because it does not play into his strengths. Why be a melee wizard when I can be an eldritch knight or bladelock? Additionally, we see examples of the Barbarian having the same basic structure through Unarmored Defense, but they specifically get access to armor and shields because it is EXTREMELY hard to take advantage of a Barbarian with high dex or have a dex based barbarian. The designers knew that by design, such a barbarian doesn't work since its rage ability is specifically designed to only enhance melee strength based weapons. For the monk, the same is not true. A monk specifically needs to take advantage of dex to use their abilities, and because dex is tied to AC and they get Unarmored Defense, a monk that has access to armor and shields is much more likely to end up with an unhittable AC. So they threw in that limit of no armor and no shields to prevent such abuse, but it also simultaneously and perhaps unintentionally forced monks into a Dex based class.
 
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