D&D 5E The "Powergamers (Min/maxer)" vs "Alpha Gamers" vs "Role Play Gamers" vs "GM" balance mismatch "problem(s)"

Sunseeker · Nov 19, 2017

Caliban said:
To give them a sense of the scope of the world and their current place in it?
To give them a goal to strive for later? (Dragons have treasure hoards!)
To lend a sense of verisimilitude to the game, as not all enemies will be carefully calibrated to the PC's levels, so they should open to other options than pure combat for every encounter?
To lay the groundwork for a climactic battle with the dragon in a few levels (maybe it's the current big bad, maybe it's under control of the big bad).

Because Dave ate the last slice if pizza and bragged about how easy the last boss encounter was so you just need to see the expression on his face when he realizes his precious paladin might not be able to smite his way out this encounter? I mean, it's not like DAVE ever DM's! ...Er, or something.

Elfcrusher said:
1) Because sometimes it's ok for the DM to "read a story" as a transition or foreshadowing.
2) Maybe they have to make some decisions and possibly some dice rolls in order to flee successfully.

Again I agree with these.

Players often spot things they cannot handle. Though I won't stop them from being stupid, I will generally narrate their way out of it. Even it is something as simple as "You suspect that the dragon is way beyond your capabilities." If the PCs respond with "Lets go kill it!" Yeah well they earned it then. This is often how I run random encounters, players spot things and then are given the opportunity to engage, or avoid them. In a case like this, I would likely at worst have the dragon mess with the party for a little bit. It knows they can't do meaningful damage to it. Hey it might even have quests, ya know the ones: where you go do this thing or I eat you.

Satyrn · Nov 19, 2017

ClaytonCross said:
If I am not mistaken, all Dragons have a flight speed of 80ft, meaning if they take the dash action they can move 160ft in a round so there is no way players are out running them even in the woodlands

I would think that the tree canopy would create lots of places a large dragon can't easily access while flying, and a denser tree population would hinder it on the ground.

pemerton · Nov 19, 2017

shidaku said:
Players often spot things they cannot handle.

Well, literally, what the players spot is some fellow players, dice, books, perhaps snacks, etc.

What I asked about, though, is why the GM establishes a fictional situation to which the players only have one reasonable response if they're not to suffer a TPK.

Caliban said:
To give them a sense of the scope of the world and their current place in it?
To give them a goal to strive for later? (Dragons have treasure hoards!)
To lend a sense of verisimilitude to the game, as not all enemies will be carefully calibrated to the PC's levels, so they should open to other options than pure combat for every encounter?
To lay the groundwork for a climactic battle with the dragon in a few levels (maybe it's the current big bad, maybe it's under control of the big bad).

OK, so these all look like variations on the GM reading a story to the players.

Elfcrusher said:
Because sometimes it's ok for the DM to "read a story" as a transition or foreshadowing.

This is probably the aspect of playstyle on which my preference differ from you and Caliban.

Elfcrusher said:
Maybe they have to make some decisions and possibly some dice rolls in order to flee successfully.

The "test of skill" aspect to things I understand - though TPK as the consequence of failure seems harsh!

shidaku said:
I would likely at worst have the dragon mess with the party for a little bit. It knows they can't do meaningful damage to it. Hey it might even have quests, ya know the ones: where you go do this thing or I eat you.

Personally I'd turn this around - the dragon approaching the PCs would be the result of some effort or action of theirs that implicates draconic concerns.

Guest 6801328 · Nov 19, 2017

pemerton said:
This is probably the aspect of playstyle on which my preference differ from you and Caliban.

/shrug. Ok. See below.

The "test of skill" aspect to things I understand - though TPK as the consequence of failure seems harsh!

It doesn't have to be "succeed or die." Failing Forward is an option.

Personally I'd turn this around - the dragon approaching the PCs would be the result of some effort or action of theirs that implicates draconic concerns.

I don't think everything that happens in the world has to revolve around the PCs. Sometimes they are just witnesses to things. I might describe a thunderstorm in the distance, or a volcano erupting. On a more modest scale, I might describe a tinker pushing his cart, or an old woman spinning thread and chuckling silently to herself. It doesn't mean the PCs have to rush over and get involved; sometimes elements are just there to set the stage.

Saeviomagy · Nov 19, 2017

ClaytonCross said:
Am a wrong in that "having a big power differential" is referring to min/max power gaming and the statement at the bottom is basically "bad player fix yourself"?

You are indeed wrong.
If, for whatever reason, characters end up being powerful to the point where it's making the game less enjoyable if it's not taken into account, it makes the game more difficult to run.

If you find yourself making the game more difficult to run, you should stop doing whatever it is that's causing the problem.

That doesn't mean you need to create incompetent characters. It just means don't play like an arse.

shidaku said:
Right, that's why you make dedicated challenges. The super-DPR barbarian isn't going to do a very good job in social challenges.

In what way is hand-crafting every encounter to take each character's statistics and capabilities into account somehow just as easy as not having to do that because everyone is more-or-less balanced?

Greg K · Nov 20, 2017

When I DM, the issue is simple- the players, ultimately, need to adapt to my threshold levels. Optimization, Powergaming, and I'll throw in Butt-Kicking are each on their own axis and the degree to which a player engages in any of those activities falls on a continuum. If a player, while engaging in one or more go those activities, crosses a threshold which I feel is inappropriate, they need to rein it in or find another table to which they are more appropriate.

Guest 6801328 · Nov 20, 2017

Saeviomagy said:
In what way is hand-crafting every encounter to take each character's statistics and capabilities into account somehow just as easy as not having to do that because everyone is more-or-less balanced?

While that sounds reasonable, I'm not sure how you got there from [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION]'s "Right, that's why you make dedicated challenges. The super-DPR barbarian isn't going to do a very good job in social challenges." I wouldn't call throwing in some extra social challenges, for example, "hand-crafting".

I agree with both of you...and I don't think you need to make a caricature of his claim in order to defend yours.

Sunseeker · Nov 20, 2017

Saeviomagy said:
In what way is hand-crafting every encounter to take each character's statistics and capabilities into account somehow just as easy as not having to do that because everyone is more-or-less balanced?

I didn't say every encounter should be hand-crafted. I didn't say it was easier either.

Tony Vargas · Nov 20, 2017

pemerton said:
I've never understood the point of this.

I mean, as a GM, why am I (i) framing the PCs into a scene with a massive dragon, then (ii) implying, or outright telling the players, that their only hope to avoid TPK is to flee? That seems like the GM just reading a story to the players - "You met a dragon, then you ran away." How does it make for good RPGing?

Its pretty much set-dressing, at that point, like "to the east you see snow-capped mountains..."

pemerton · Nov 20, 2017

Elfcrusher said:
I don't think everything that happens in the world has to revolve around the PCs.

<snip>

sometimes elements are just there to set the stage.

I prefer to keep my stage-setting pretty brief, and/or for it to have a cooperative element. But most of the time I want to be focused on things that revolve around the PCs. (There may be other stuff happening in the imaginary world, but until it connects to the PCs I'm happy for it to be left to the unspecified imagination of the participants.)

Tony Vargas said:
Its pretty much set-dressing, at that point, like "to the east you see snow-capped mountains..."

But it's at least presenting itself as an episode of play; and it takes some time to resolve. I like to keep my set-dressing pretty brief.

D&D 5E The "Powergamers (Min/maxer)" vs "Alpha Gamers" vs "Role Play Gamers" vs "GM" balance mismatch "problem(s)"

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