D&D 5E Sub-classes and World Building

Shiroiken · Dec 9, 2017

A simple solution would be to start your campaign at level 3. Few players really enjoy the apprentice tier anyway, due to the fragile nature of the characters.

Another option would be to have the players introduce aspects of their sub-class before they get there. Most characters that go into a Tangental Subclass have been built for that since the beginning, because they have a different focus (such as Int for the Eldritch Knight).

Patrons can be introduced via dreams, visions, omens, or a wandering teacher.

Coroc · Dec 9, 2017

WayOfTheFourElements said:
I'm having a difficult time reconciling my world with the new sub-classes presented in the XGTE.

In the PHB, I see two types of sub-classes, Natural Sub-classes - those that are a natural extension of the class, such as the barbarians's Path of the Berserker or the monk's Way of the Open Hand - and Tangential Sub-classes - those that take the class into a new direction, including the fighter's Eldritch Knight and the monk's Way of the Four Elements.

While it seem entirely possible that the abilities natural sub-classes could have arose a natural extension of the character's original training necessary to become a member of his or her class in the first place, tangential sub-classes would require more specialized instruction.

That instruction may come in the form of a divine or warlock patron or else a knowledgeable teacher. In some cases, such as the Eldritch Knight, that teacher need not be a member of the character's class; any wizard could instruct the fighter the ways of wizardry. At other times, as in the case of the Monk's Way of Shadow, a more specialized teacher (an adept in the ways of shadow magic, though not necessary a monk) may be necessary.

This, however, creates some difficulties with regards to world building and player agency. I want my players to have the widest variety of classes and archetypes to choose from, but I also want those choices to make sense within the context of the immediate setting and the world at large.

In some cases, such as the sorcerer, in which the character's sub-class is chosen at first level, there is no disconnect. The character has simple already received the training and knowledge of the principles necessary continue down and develop the entire list of abilities associated with the sub-class.

Classes that choose their sub-class after first level, such as fighter, monk, and paladin, are more problematic. While the player may want his or her character enter one sub-class, the arcane archer, for example, no instructor may be available. While the character could certainly search for a teacher, forcing character to choose their subclass at a specific level sets a time limit, by which time the character must locate such an individual. Alternatively, I could present a plethora of well known trainers easily accessible to the characters; unfortunately this places an uncomfortable amount of stress on the setting and raises the question of why the PCs' heroics are necessary in the first place with so many high-level characters nearby.

So. How to you solve this predicament in your campaigns? How does AL choose to handle it?

(FYI, "I don't care to think about these things and you shouldn't either" isn't the type of answer I'm looking for.)

I give you a hint, although I might get flames for it:

You design your world, that is a shitload of effort for your players.

A lot of the classic settings had things restricted and that made them unique and a challenge

There is a challenge in restricted resources, diversity is not a challenge if it results in shoehorning.

If you get the choice whether someone can play his teenage mutant ninja turtle pirate hobbit dual greatswordwielder sorlock druidadin or if it makes sense to NOT allow a subclass /class /race go for the later !!!!

It is your world which you spend hours creating, making it consistent, you are the DM
- rule zero rules. If your players are not appreciating it then it is their fault not yours.

I see playing DnD as a challenge, the DM gives me a problem to solve, preconditions and a toolset. If this toolset does not contain my favourite tool then I chose another.

I yet want to see the player who always ever and ever wants to play a genie mc monk sorcerer. I do have one player who prefers to play human fighters (champions). He does not want to focus on game mechanics. But even he could be convinced to play a paladin for a change although his fighter was a allowed option also. He did it for party diversity.

So if you restrict some special flake from an add on rulebook do it, just communicate it upfront, do not integrate everything in your campaign even if it is planescape. It makes things more believable and challenging and therefore fun.

Severite · Dec 9, 2017

There are a couple ways to approach this, for myself, it would depend on "available resources", but one way to handle it if the resources just are not there, than let them level up without having chosen, and let the training come a bit later, though in that case I feel it is your job to make that work out in your setting in a satisfactory way. Personally, I would handwave it under off time in a sanctuary that I require for leveling up anyway, and retroactively add it to a their backstory. They were trained by their master, a Knight of the Wave, who in her later years trained in yhe art of the magus, and as part of your education as her ward, she expected you to utilize both your mind, and body, in service to the Regent. So, the character has had the makings of an eldritch knight this whole time, she is just finally getting results with her magical tutelage now.
.

Sunseeker · Dec 9, 2017

I'm going to talk about MMO design for a moment.

Back in the olden days, World of Warcraft has "class trainers". Every time you leveled up and a new ability became "unlocked" you had to stop everything you were doing, travel to the nearest trainer and pay for training. Sure, some people waited but as you point out, some things like subclasses are major elements that to force them to wait until the party reaches a town, and then wait until they find the appropriate trainer, can be unfair and unreasonably burdensome to certain classes.

Eventually, WoW figured this out too. That there was no real benefit to removing players from the world, taking them away from their quests, and forcing them to head to town to pay a guy 3 gold to learn how to hit stuff in a new way.

Philosophically, I come to the same answers in my own game. Taking people away from what they are interested in doing (questing, saving the princess, slaying monsters) and telling them to go do something they are uninterested in doing doesn't serve any real benefit. Typically I answer my own question with "That's what experience points are all about." They're the efforts you have made during the game swinging your sword differently, attempting to call upon the innate magic within your soul, challenging your ki to new and unique ends. Class features are simply a game mechanic to represent the abilities a player has developed via gaining experience. It is less surprising that many people come to the same conclusions (swinging your sword this way does more damage!) than it is surprising that a player may develop new abilities "in the field".

Likewise, it should not be unreasonable to suggest that everything a player knows is the height of their learning. There may be highly skilled, classed (or non-classed) NPCs who know specific talents and features that may not be listed in any book. That is IMO, where training is best served, to learn something that the player could not otherwise pull from the pages of a Handbook.

WayOfTheFourElements · Dec 9, 2017

shidaku said:
I'm going to talk about MMO design for a moment.

Back in the olden days, World of Warcraft has "class trainers". Every time you leveled up and a new ability became "unlocked" you had to stop everything you were doing, travel to the nearest trainer and pay for training. Sure, some people waited but as you point out, some things like subclasses are major elements that to force them to wait until the party reaches a town, and then wait until they find the appropriate trainer, can be unfair and unreasonably burdensome to certain classes.

Eventually, WoW figured this out too. That there was no real benefit to removing players from the world, taking them away from their quests, and forcing them to head to town to pay a guy 3 gold to learn how to hit stuff in a new way.

Philosophically, I come to the same answers in my own game. Taking people away from what they are interested in doing (questing, saving the princess, slaying monsters) and telling them to go do something they are uninterested in doing doesn't serve any real benefit. Typically I answer my own question with "That's what experience points are all about." They're the efforts you have made during the game swinging your sword differently, attempting to call upon the innate magic within your soul, challenging your ki to new and unique ends. Class features are simply a game mechanic to represent the abilities a player has developed via gaining experience. It is less surprising that many people come to the same conclusions (swinging your sword this way does more damage!) than it is surprising that a player may develop new abilities "in the field".

Likewise, it should not be unreasonable to suggest that everything a player knows is the height of their learning. There may be highly skilled, classed (or non-classed) NPCs who know specific talents and features that may not be listed in any book. That is IMO, where training is best served, to learn something that the player could not otherwise pull from the pages of a Handbook.

Um...I don't think that addresses a single one of my concerns. Self training doesn't work. The odds of two unique individuals on opposite side of the continent simultaneously discovering the exact same abilities through self training doesn't make much sense to me. My concerning had little to do with adventuring and more to do with creating an internally consistent world, which I find I prerequisite for both my own and player by-in.

Sunseeker · Dec 9, 2017

WayOfTheFourElements said:
Self training doesn't work.

Then I believe you have your answer.

If you are asking us how you can justify your decision, I don't think anyone can help you there.

Dausuul · Dec 9, 2017

Personally, I handwave training. The whole level-advancement system is manifestly absurd, and you really can't run a D&D campaign unless you're willing to put a big ol' blind spot in your mental vision and shove that absurdity into it. Since I'm already doing that, I have no problem including "training for a subclass" in the list of things getting shoved in that blind spot. But everybody's got their limits on what they can ignore, and if subclass training exceeds yours, then that's how it is.

So, here's my suggestion: At any time, PCs can spend downtime searching for trainers in a given subclass; spend a week and make a DC 8 Persuasion check to find out about one. You will typically do this at 1st or 2nd level, so by the time you have the option to take the subclass, you've found a trainer. If you change your mind, no problem, just go find another one. Then you visit the trainer, again during downtime, and get initiated into the subclass.

Each visit to a trainer will give you enough material to carry you for 3 levels with no further visits. For example, if you're level 4, the trainer will show you techniques for levels 5, 6, and 7. Each time you level up, you master some of those techniques. If you go back to the trainer at level 6, you'll be shown techniques for levels 7, 8, and 9.

Trainers are level 5-8 or so. They know the theory for more advanced stuff, but for whatever reason have never been able to achieve the practice (or they achieved it once, but old age has taken its toll). Think of it like a football coach: The coach can coax a player to greatness far beyond what the player could achieve unaided, but if the coach had to go out on the field himself, he'd be a bloody smear on the gridiron. It's possible to teach things that you yourself can't do.

I think this addresses all of the major issues:

Because you can hunt up a trainer before you have to pick a subclass, the search need not disrupt your advancement.
Because you can "pre-train" 3 levels at a time, you don't have to drop everything and return to the trainer every level. You can stop in when your adventures give you time.
Because trainers can teach things they themselves can't do, the world is not crammed with 20th-level trainers sitting on their hands while their wet-behind-the-ears students go out and fight evil.

WayOfTheFourElements · Dec 10, 2017

shidaku said:
Then I believe you have your answer.

If you are asking us how you can justify your decision, I don't think anyone can help you there.

Once again, you don't address the crux of the issue, which was that The odds of two unique individuals (let alone 10 or more individuals [PCs]) on opposite side of the continent simultaneously discovering the exact same abilities through self training is astronomically small.

Sunseeker · Dec 10, 2017

WayOfTheFourElements said:
Once again, you don't address the crux of the issue, which was that The odds of two unique individuals (let alone 10 or more individuals [PCs]) on opposite side of the continent simultaneously discovering the exact same abilities through self training is astronomically small.

Yes, I didn't address the issue on purpose.

Charlaquin · Dec 10, 2017

I just assume that this kind of specialized training happened in the characters’ backstories. While out-of-character a player might not settle on what subclass they want to take until the level they recieve it, in character I say that your Eldritch Knight was an Eldritch Knight even before reaching 3rd level and gaining his first Subclass feature for it.

D&D 5E Sub-classes and World Building

Shiroiken

Legend

Coroc

Hero

Severite

First Post

Sunseeker

Guest

WayOfTheFourElements

Hero

Sunseeker

Guest

Dausuul

Legend

WayOfTheFourElements

Hero

Sunseeker

Guest

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

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