Morale systems

AbdulAlhazred said:

the most intimidating guy is the biggest bad-ass .

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Or is it the guy who seems like he is playing with you that gets inside your head while remaining utterly opaque ... that bit about a disarm being evidence of superiority what if the sword play makes you feel like your attacks are more under his control like he gives you permission instead of like you make your opportunities etc etc

AbdulAlhazred said:

2) Morale system v1 - This was just basically an adaptation of what happens in AD&D (which is how I would classify LostSoul's mechanics too). It requires managing morale as a separate system and has the same disadvantage as the Intimidate system from 4e, it creates a 'second path' to defeating monsters, with attendant problems.

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I definitely used AD&D for inspiration for my morale system. One important thing to note is that the result of a failed morale check is that the NPCs need to change tactics; it doesn't necessarily mean surrender or retreat.

There were a few design notes I wanted to hit:

1. Act as a flag for the DM: the situation has changed, the NPCs need to respond to that. It's easy to forget about changing NPC motivations in response to the situation with everything else that you have to keep track of, and making the check is a way of reminding the DM that this is important.
2. Act as a way for players to overcome an encounter that's not killing everyone. I've done this as a player, especially when outmatched.
3. Related to #1, as a way to remind the DM that the NPCs are supposed to be characters and not game pieces.

I think there was something else but that about covers it.

Anyway, in 4E I would probably put this in the encounter design space instead of as a global rule. The system would include rules on how to handle this extra dimension of an encounter, and the Monster Manual entries would include suggested or default morale options.

Just brainstorming here...

You set up a number of conditions (three should be enough) that describe the nature of the encounter. When the condition is met, the NPCs make a morale check and the corresponding effect is gained. In the monster entry there's a default set of conditions and effects (maybe the effects are set by level).

Goblin Default Conditions & Effects:
1. Leader Bloodied:
2. Outnumbered:
3. Stole Some Loot:

It's been too long since I played 4E to offer any effects, but these would take into account what a goblin can do and make them more interesting. You could have an Insight check reveal this information as well.

If you had a Spider Queen encounter where she's guarding her eggs, she might have a condition where, if the eggs are threatened, she attacks the PC threatening the eggs (or maybe halts combat or something, like the Alien Queen in Aliens when Ripley is threatening the eggs with her flame thrower). If they are destroyed she goes into a frenzy and only attacks the closest PC. If she's bloodied maybe she grabs some eggs and runs, I don't know. Whatever will make it interesting.

You could do some fun things with monsters, like the classic example of presenting garlic or a holy symbol to a vampire.

Some powers, especially psychic ones, could apply morale conditions.

heretic888 said:

Well, like I said, hit points don't really represent *anything* about the characters other than an abstract doom clock. We can describe it as a "willingness to fight" or an "ability to fight" all we want, but at the end of the day its just Color; by which I mean, it has zero impact on the game's procedures or on the characters' fictional positioning with the exception of a few traits and powers that trigger when bloodied (and, even then, the game's procedures don't care one whit if you're Bloodied with 100 hp vs being Bloodied with 1 hp).

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What hit points represent may be somewhat abstract, but it isn't 'nothing'. Its quite clear in terms of player's tactics when they are low on hit points!

This isn't unique to 4E, by the way. This is true of all versions of D&D. Losing hit points doesn't make you more susceptible to being influenced nor does it diminish your ability to hit and damage enemies. All it does it mark how close you are to being defeated/killed/whatever. Its no different then a life point bar in most video games.

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The problem is that the design alternatives are usually WORSE. Proposed 'solutions' on the PC side usually lead to a death spiral problem.

The purpose of the morale system I use in my games is threefold: 1) it gives more wiggle room in using hard and very hard encounters, 2) it helps prevent the Combat Takes Too Long syndrome without the potentially unbalancing options like rejiggering monster hp and damage, and 3) it increases player empowerment by giving them more meaningful tactical decisions in an encounter (and also mitigates somewhat the overwhelming efficacy of focus fire against single enemies).

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Wiggle room? As in they will be less hard? I don't see the point... 'Combat Takes Tol Long' is not a problem, 'Combat is Boring' IS a problem. I'm not saying a morale system will hurt, it could produce good results, I just don't think that shortening combats is some kind of goal in and of itself. I'm not sure what your reference to focus fire means...

My understanding is using the Intimidate skill to force a bloodied foe to surrender can only be done to one creature at a time. Is this incorrect?

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Nope, you can try to Intimidate every opponent who meets the necessary criteria at once. Note that with certain items and powers you can bypass the 'must be bloodied' requirement (or cause things to be bloodied at higher than half hit points, same difference). Admittedly it isn't that easy to get lots of bloodied opponents at once though.

In fact, even if the opponent is NOT bloodied, you can still "cow a target into taking some other action." What exactly that means is undefined, but it could well be fairly advantageous to a PC, and with a highly optimized Intimidate check, pretty trivial to pull off.

AbdulAlhazred said:

In fact, even if the opponent is NOT bloodied, you can still "cow a target into taking some other action." What exactly that means is undefined, but it could well be fairly advantageous to a PC, and with a highly optimized Intimidate check, pretty trivial to pull off.

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It needs de-vaguified and optimization of skills brought under control (not something my players will typically do but)

Hence my use of it to come up with some alternative well defined intimidate based at-will class something or others...

Can everyone just have more skill powers please!!!!!!!

Garthanos said:

While I like it conceptually it seems to have a real numbers problem (maybe making it so it doesnt demand as much to be optimized my help)

Its actually real powerful particularly if you can bloody a lot of the field or simply doesnt work at all ie it is SWING high SWING low.

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Well, won't that simply mean more people will optimize it, and to even a greater degree than now?

This swinginess is pretty much inherent in this sort of subsystem. Since it 'plays by its own rules' it has to be an all-or-nothing sort of system that is either low probability and/or only works in specific situations. This is all inherently problematic design.

LostSoul said:

1. Act as a flag for the DM: the situation has changed, the NPCs need to respond to that. It's easy to forget about changing NPC motivations in response to the situation with everything else that you have to keep track of, and making the check is a way of reminding the DM that this is important.

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But, since the GM now has to not forget to track morale (which in AD&D is rather complex BTW) I'm not sure the goal is actually achieved. The reason I advocated hit points as the core mechanic for it is that it is ALREADY kept track of, and thus has very low overhead. I think adding new mechanics to 4e is already problematic, and I want them to be very 'cheap'.

2. Act as a way for players to overcome an encounter that's not killing everyone. I've done this as a player, especially when outmatched.

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This is always desirable and every encounter should have these.

Anyway, in 4E I would probably put this in the encounter design space instead of as a global rule. The system would include rules on how to handle this extra dimension of an encounter, and the Monster Manual entries would include suggested or default morale options.

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Yeah, I hear you. Its creating additional work for the encounter designer to consider though. And when you consider that I largely run my games as Story Now where 'design' isn't really a thing... I need SOME sort of mechanic that can be established almost by rote.

You set up a number of conditions (three should be enough) that describe the nature of the encounter. When the condition is met, the NPCs make a morale check and the corresponding effect is gained. In the monster entry there's a default set of conditions and effects (maybe the effects are set by level).

Goblin Default Conditions & Effects:
1. Leader Bloodied:
2. Outnumbered:
3. Stole Some Loot:

It's been too long since I played 4E to offer any effects, but these would take into account what a goblin can do and make them more interesting. You could have an Insight check reveal this information as well.

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Right, this could also be a standard part of the description of each monster, with the understanding that it represents a generalized list that can be particularized as needed.

If you had a Spider Queen encounter where she's guarding her eggs, she might have a condition where, if the eggs are threatened, she attacks the PC threatening the eggs (or maybe halts combat or something, like the Alien Queen in Aliens when Ripley is threatening the eggs with her flame thrower). If they are destroyed she goes into a frenzy and only attacks the closest PC. If she's bloodied maybe she grabs some eggs and runs, I don't know. Whatever will make it interesting.

You could do some fun things with monsters, like the classic example of presenting garlic or a holy symbol to a vampire.

Some powers, especially psychic ones, could apply morale conditions.

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Well, morale could also be represented by changing the creature's WILL defense. In HoML 'psychic' is a description of any sort of situation where the target is 'damaged' by non-physical mental situations, and these are invariably attacks on WILL, so its actually a pretty good way to go, though in straight 4e things are not so clear.

Tony Vargas said:

The structure could be as simple as X successes before 3 failures, Intimidate primary, advantage: each bloodied standard enemy counts as a success...

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Interesting ... I kind of missed that thought.

AbdulAlhazred said:

In fact, even if the opponent is NOT bloodied, you can still "cow a target into taking some other action." What exactly that means is undefined, but it could well be fairly advantageous to a PC, and with a highly optimized Intimidate check, pretty trivial to pull off.

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Like "Get OUT of my way...." to open a path through the enemy rank en file where they move so you dont trigger opportunity attacks on your move action. Wouldnt need bloodied,

The combat intimidations can be repeated until they fail against the target too.

Garthanos said:

The combat intimidations can be repeated until they fail against the target too.

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Not according to my reading, you get one chance to use Intimidate on an opponent, per encounter.