Heroes In Shades Of Grey

My wife and I recently began watching the HBO series Game of Thrones (based on George R. R. Martin's books) from the start. I had read the books, neither of us had seen any of the series.

My wife and I recently began watching the HBO series Game of Thrones (based on George R. R. Martin's books) from the start. I had read the books, neither of us had seen any of the series.


Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series (to give it its proper name) is very different from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. In LOTR we know, with few exceptions, who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. The only good orc is a dead orc. Sauron is evil personified. Martin's books are much more contemporary, where no one is wholly evil or wholly good, and many are very much in between. It reminds me of typical contemporary science fiction and fantasy rather than of the older, sometimes called "pulp," style. And of course, Martin has no compunction about bumping off major characters left and right, especially in the earlier books.

"If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'" - John Wayne

I started writing this piece when it occurred to me to wonder whether there's any kind of parallel to this in gaming - especially tabletop gaming. I don't know, but I can see some comparisons. For example, your typical Euro style board or card game entirely lacks good guys and bad guys. That may be partly because so many are symmetrical, everyone is essentially the same. Tabletop RPGs are more of a holdout for the good guy/bad guy comparisons, although even 40 years ago most players wanted to act like Chaotic Neutrals, doing whatever they wanted but not responsible for what they did, able to act like thugs but not suffer the consequences of being of actual evil alignment. (You won't be surprised to learn that they never got away with this when I was the GM.) There are many RPGs nowadays that are shades of gray rather than black and white, and evidently many people enjoy this, not I.

Given how much of contemporary life is littered with shades of gray nowadays, where our elected officials are often regarded as crooks, I always liked the notion that one could clearly be a hero, a good guy. I play the game by putting myself in the position of the character, rather than functioning as an actor playing a role.

This gray is part and parcel of the contemporary dislike of constraints. Any game is a set of constraints that players agree to abide by (if they don't, they cheat). You can't have a game without constraints. Yet contemporaries seem to be less tolerant of constraints than people were 40 or 50 years ago, perhaps because there's so many more things we can do in a world with computers and the Internet than we could back when. Games are often more puzzle than game, so there are no constraints imposed by other players. It's very striking to hear someone say they don't want other people messing up the game they're playing.

"Life isn't black and white. It's a million gray areas, don't you find?" - Ridley Scott

It's not surprising, then, that people object to many constraints within the rules of the game. If players don't have to worry about being good, about living up to some kind of standard, if they can successfully be thugs in a world of grays rather than blacks and whites, then they've eliminated some constraints.

There are different kinds of heroes: some who grow up wanting to be heroes, and prepare to be heroes, and have the necessary attitude to be heroes (like Aragorn in Lord of the Rings books, or Wonder Woman in the recent movie), are one kind. People who are forced to do what must be done when there's no one else to do it (like Frodo and Sam in Lord of the Rings) are another kind of hero, the Everyman hero. But both of these heroes require pretty clear-cut situations, black and white rather than gray situations. And we expect the first kind to be sure of their mission, as Aragorn was in the books, but not in the movies, where he was made to be modern-style sensitive and uncertain.

Kriti Sanon said "We are all somewhere or the other a little grey, not black and white. We have our imperfections." But in a game, we can put those imperfections behind us and pretend we are black or white.

contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio
S

Sunseeker

Guest
I am a big fan of Adventures in Middle Earth (a 5e system for Lord of the RIngs) and its shadow point system. There are no alignments in this version of DnD 5e. Instead, characters may accumulate shadow points if they commit dishonorable acts like stealing from the innocent and murder. Characters could also receive shadow points for witnessing distressing events or crossing areas blighted by shadow. Shadow points impact the game in a variety of ways. For instance, if attacked by a wight's evil, your shadow point total is added to your DC. Even the most well-intentioned characters will accumulate shadow points, especially if they confront the Enemy. Characters who go about murdering and stealing from honest people will find themselves overcome by shadow.

Reminds me of Madness or Corruption or Taint other systems use, does it have a similar "When your Shadow is this high *raises hand over head* you become an NPC?" I mean, aside from making life generally more difficult, whats the endgame?
 

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As I said in my reply to shidaku above, its really up to the DM to go the extra mile to make the system work. But then that's true of a lot about the game. One of the problems players have with the D&D alignment system is the lack of definition (as you point out), another is the justification of actions as "good" (or whatever) because it seems appropriate / useful to the player. "Well, we killed the prisoners because they might escape and commit more crimes. What's wrong with that? We had to.". Evil, even if true. It's just what I might term a necessary evil. I'm not trying to restrict behavior, just evaluate it. Where it starts out and where it goes is really up to the players -- as long as the ground rules are set.

Except you are evaluating based on your opinion so you saying something is a necessary evil IS just your opinion and really does not get anywhere.
 

Except you are evaluating based on your opinion so you saying something is a necessary evil IS just your opinion and really does not get anywhere.

In the end everything comes down to an opinion on how something works. The point is to make that opinion plain, and as a result, understandable. In a system with absolutes of good and evil, law and chaos based on behavior (rather than controlled by alignment), that's as good as it gets (imho). You can scrap alignment or go to an alternate system of course (several are mentioned up thread). This is my fix for keeping the system, more or less as is. To define it and make it, as much as possible, understandable to the players (as well as me :) ). The alignment system is wound pretty tightly into D&D, the classes, the creatures, some spells. I find it easier to keep it (with additional explanation). Ymmv.

*edit* And, as I mentioned I discuss issues with my players. If they aren't sure I can help the figure it out, and if they have a different opinion I consider it. In the end, the DMs job is to interpret and apply the game results, whatever they might be. Again imho. And, as an aside, do you really see murdering helpless prisoners (no matter what they have done, without trial / recourse / legal authority to do so) as anything except evil (if maybe "necessary")?
 
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Koloth

First Post
One big problem with the traditional D&D alignment systems is the alignments are defined from the John Wayne White Hat point of view, especially the good vs evil balance. Do Orcs consider themselves evil? Or is it those nasty repressive racist humans always attacking without cause and stealing our family heirlooms that are evil?
 

This article is the functional equivalent of the Simpsons' 'old man yells at cloud.' Or a D&D article written by Andy Rooney. I think conflating liking shades of gray and breaking rules is pretty ridiculous.

Play your game how you want to play it. I will play mine my way.
 

Von Ether

Legend
One big problem with the traditional D&D alignment systems is the alignments are defined from the John Wayne White Hat point of view, especially the good vs evil balance. Do Orcs consider themselves evil? Or is it those nasty repressive racist humans always attacking without cause and stealing our family heirlooms that are evil?

The simpler truth of it is that it's much easier to create a world where the neon sign points "Here be adventure!" when you have a black and while morality set up. You don't need to figure out where your loyalties lie or who is telling the truth. If you hit an orc, or a goblin or a undead, you are hitting the right targets.

Worlds with gray morality maybe be more "realistic" but it's harder to just set out and adventure. Is that a dagger or a pipe that the orc is pulling out of his vest? Until you find out, your adventure to kick butt is on hold.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
This article is the functional equivalent of the Simpsons' 'old man yells at cloud.' Or a D&D article written by Andy Rooney. I think conflating liking shades of gray and breaking rules is pretty ridiculous.

Play your game how you want to play it. I will play mine my way.

Welcome to one of Lew's threads, here's the upshot: they're all like this.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The simpler truth of it is that it's much easier to create a world where the neon sign points "Here be adventure!" when you have a black and while morality set up. You don't need to figure out where your loyalties lie or who is telling the truth. If you hit an orc, or a goblin or a undead, you are hitting the right targets.

Worlds with gray morality maybe be more "realistic" but it's harder to just set out and adventure. Is that a dagger or a pipe that the orc is pulling out of his vest? Until you find out, your adventure to kick butt is on hold.
Not if you're playing PC murderhobos, it isn't. :)

More seriously, our games have nearly always been shades-of-gray but that's never proven much of a hindrance to finding reasons to adventure.

I mean, really, all you need to be is greedy. :)
 

When I want "shades of grey" or morally ambiguous gaming, I go with modern day, horror or sci-fi settings. An anti-hero in a supers game can also be a lot of fun. But when I want more black and white morality, I go for fantasy gaming, maybe because my first fantasy reading was of Tolkien, or maybe because fantasy is the opposite of reality and morality in general should not be the same as in the real world.
 

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